Brazil’s Air Tragedy: Transcripts Show US Pilots as Confused and Inexperienced

    American pilots Jan Paladino and Joseph Lepore after leaving Brazil

    American pilots Jan Paladino and Joseph Lepore after leaving Brazil This Sunday's Folha de S. Paulo, Brazil's largest-circulation daily, publishes an analysis of 290 pages of conversations between the American pilots of an executive Legacy jet and Brazil's air traffic controllers before and after the collision with a Boeing 737, which  would become Brazil's worst air accident ever with the death of all 154 people aboard the big jet.

    Despite damages to the smaller plane, the seven passengers in the Legacy were able to land safely at an Air Force air base in the Amazon jungle.

    Joseph Lepore, 42, and Jan Paladino, 34, two American pilots who were flying the Legacy plane over the Amazon last September 29, concluded Folha, are not telling the truth about what happened during their flight and they also seem to have little familiarity with their plane and the Brazilian skies.

    They apparently were also sometimes paying more attention to a laptop playing a movie than to the flight. The article written by journalist Eliane Cantanhêde concludes that the accident was caused by a "a series of mistakes, misunderstandings and a certain inexperience or incompetence."

    While the original flight plan anticipated a change in altitude from 37,000 feet to 36,000, the Folha text concluded that the transcripts make it clear that problems of communication between the control tower and the pilots for three times prevented the pilots from getting a straight answer at what altitude they should fly.

    For Folha, Lepore and Paladino lied when they said that they became aware that they had hit another plane only after their emergency landing at Serra do Cachimbo military Air Base. The transcripts show one of the pilots asking right after the collision between the two planes: "What the hell was that?" A little later one of them says, "We hit another plane. I don't know where this shit came from."

    According to Folha, the transcripts don't answer a key question: "Why the Legacy's transponder, which should have prevented the collision, wasn't working at the time of the accident?"

    Brazilian investigators work with the hypothesis that one of the two pilots, Lepore or Paladino, had a laptop open in the cockpit in a way that its cover hid the panel where the transponder was located. While there is no explicit mention of laptop in the taped conversation, they talk about a DVD.

    From the almost 300 pages of voice data gathered from the small jet's black box, 112 pages are for conversations from the American pilots. The rest contains communications  with the São José dos Campos tower, from where the Legacy took off and attempts from the Cindacta-1 control tower in Brasí­lia and Cindacta-4 in Manaus to understand why the Boeing 737 had disappeared from the radars.

    The transcripts also reveal that flight controllers in Brazilian capital Brasí­lia were sure that the Legacy was at 36,000 feet and not 37,000, which was the real altitude.

    The pilots seem to show they have little experience with the Legacy. Talking about the FMS (Flight Management System) one of the pilots comment: "I'm still working on how to deal with this thing." A little later he says that he needs to "read the manual" and complains: "Everything is a mess because (…) we need, I think,  to clean and set up this plane."

    In one dialogue a pilot says to his colleague: "I need to learn this international shit." Both complain about the bad English of the São José dos Campos's controller.

    The transcriptions were made at Washington's NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board). 

    Tags:

    • Show Comments (86)

    • Norman Kemble

      Hey ric it’s almost time for you to dress up as a fake captain that you are and go out and find some meninas novas.

    • Norman Kemble

      IÀ¢€™m sorry for anyone just reading this but, this stuff they are posting to absolve the legacy pilots and Excelaire is nothing but doublespeak. Plain and simple.

      Big brother and believe what I tell you not what you know is right.

      Donˢ۪t question authority but follow along with what we tell you is right and true.

      LACK OF SITUATIONAL AWARENESSÀ¢€¦À¢€¦À¢€¦.

      NOT BEING TRAINED IN INTERNATIONAL PROCEDURESÀ¢€¦À¢€¦À¢€¦.

      NOT BEING ADEQUATELY TRAINED IN THE AIRPLANE TYPEÀ¢€¦.

      LACK OF CRM AND FOLLOWING STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDRUES (SOPS)À¢€¦À¢€¦À¢€¦..

      Any of this ring a bellÀ¢€¦À¢€¦À¢€¦or are you such a techno wienie (like simpleton) that you canÀ¢€™t comprehend the truth or reason out what happened. (btwÀ¢€¦.. how many Honeywell employees work in Brazil on TCAS equipment?????) (Gee, I think simpleton works for Embraer too, along with ric, although simpleton tries to make the legacy transponder work with 21st century TCAS).

    • Norman Kemble

      That should be the pilots being experienced.

      BUT are you serious?!?! You really do need medication if you think this at anytime anywhere this is good for those guys and Excelaire.

      Gee’s I have run into some ignorant people throughout the world, especially in the US (and for those just checking in I am born and raised and live in the US) but this is beyond anything except maybe 1984, A Brave New World, a gulag archipelago……

      I hope you guys get your raise when you take in copies of your posting here to show that you are good little Nazi’s…….

    • Norman Kemble

      Gee ric I forgot…………is this 2006/2007 or is it 1934?? Are we barnstorming around the country in our bi plane or is it the 21st century and we are flying jets???

      Are we flying RVSM or are we back in the days before radar, controlled airspace, etc.????

      Are you kidding me………

      HOW possibly can you or anyone with a right mind read this and come to the conclusions that you are espousing about the pilots not being experienced??? Or not knowing anything about flying internationally??? How do you reconcile what they told the authorities and what is said on the CVR?????

      Are you guys kidding me???????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

      ric don’t publish anything more as all it does is give ME ammunition against Excelaire.

      REALLY……..ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!

    • Luis Carlos de Oliveira

      Mr Bo and Mr Sharkey: please contest or excuse yourselves!
      03/10/2006 – Brasil tem Àƒ­ndice de acidente aÀƒ©reo tido como baixo
      JANAINA LAGE
      da Folha de S.Paulo, no Rio

      O especialista em seguranÀƒ§a de vÀƒ´o do Snea (Sindicato Nacional das Empresas AeroviÀƒ¡rias), Ronaldo Jenkins, afirma que o paÀƒ­s ainda Àƒ© considerado um dos mais seguros na aviaÀƒ§Àƒ£o comercial, com nÀƒºmero de acidentes abaixo da mÀƒ©dia mundial, de 1,2 por milhÀƒ£o de decolagens. Segundo dados da Anac (AgÀƒªncia Nacional de AviaÀƒ§Àƒ£o Civil), a mÀƒ©dia de acidentes no paÀƒ­s Àƒ© de 0,87 por milhÀƒ£o de decolagem.

      Translation:

      “Brazil has index of air accidents considered low.
      The specialist in flight safety of SNEA (National Union of Airlines Companies), Ronaldo Jenkins, says that the country [Brazil] is considered one of the most safe in the comercial aviation, with the number of accidents below of the world average of 1.2 per millions of takeoffs. Based on those data from ANAC (Brazilian National Agency for Civilian Aviation) the accidents average in the country is .87 per millions of takeoffs.”

      Based on those numbers, in Brazil there are about 30% less accidents than in the rest of the world, includind the USA, what contraditcs those irresponsible people like Bo and Sharkey who spread lies everywhere they are, just because their arrogance, xenophobic education and hate to those who are not pure “WASP” like they probably are. Not to mention their probable interest in taking the focus of the investigation away from the real causes of the accident… No one wonder$$$$ why…

      This audience now waits for Mr Bo and Mr Sharkey’s contestation to the numbers from ANAC and SNEA presented by the specialist in the article above, or for the confirmation of decades of mass, problems and antiquated equipment, that under their optics, may have lead to the accident that one of them is still involved as a witness for the prossecution. May he in the future be part of the prossecution not for witnessing the accident but for obstructing the justice and false testimony.

      If you can’t contest those numbers, we all will wait to see here a bit of excuse from both of you. May you both in the future, pay more attention to the ammount of garbage that come from your mouths. …and if you want to be respected, as a person and as a nation, please pay respect yourselves to others, like you would like them to pay respect to you. Very basic…

      Luis Carlos de Oliveira
      A brasilian citizen

    • Simpleton

      Luis, here’s some info for you and comments as well:

      1- Is “everything” recorded in the voice recorder of an airplane, or the crew or the captain can turn the recorder on and off and just record part of what is talked in a flight ?”

      The cockpit voice recorder is just that. It records from both a microphone overhead and from the headsets through which the crew talk and listen to the radios. Everything on the flight deck is recorded, the crew can not turn it off / erase it / etc. This is the problem with the terrible accusations made by the Brazilians some after the accident. If these pilots were doing something illegal they would be caught very clearly by what they said in the cockpit and by the electronic records in the Flight Data Recorder. The Flight Data Recorder (different than the cockpit voice recorder) records only certain electronic data about the progress of the flight such as control surface positions, engine conditions and yes, ALTITUDE. The flight data recorder showed they did not change altitudes, the cockpit voice recorder showed they said nothing indicating playing games in the air, experimenting with the aerobatics of the aircraft, etc.. Very much shame was brought on Brazil by these bad accusations. It is also not democratic. The pilots were made to appear guilty and according to the way A brazilian continues to speak they must some day prove their innocence. Judged guilty without any invesigation at all – this is absurd.

      “2- As the transcription says, about 2 and a half minutes after the colision, one pilot asks the other if the transponder was on, and the other reacts saying NO, the transponder was off. I wasn’t able to find in the newpaper report how the transponder comes back live again, moments after this episode. How has that happen, I mean, what kind of intervention could have been taken to make the equipment goes on again ? “

      As I still do not have the text of the transcription only what you say the newspaper says – what exactly was said by the Legacy crew, what was said just before that and what was said just after. I know I saw earlier press statements that the transponder came back to life but since the ATC never saw it missing before that it’s hard to say whether it came back to life or that it never was not okay. Anyway, after determining that they are in an emergency the crew must change a 4 digit code that is included in the information broadcast by the transponder. Perhaps when they attempted to enter this emergency code they find the transponder is off / not working. After manipulating the controls it works again?

      “3- GOL in portuguese, is as GOAL in english. I wonder what kind of excitement drove that guy at the control tower when he says “Que gol 1907 Àƒ© este?”.”

      This was more than just excitement producing, the controllers became very ill. Brasilia Center did not know for certain what altitude the Legacy was really at (there are only two correct answers – they see it is at 37K if transponder is working or they don’t know what altitude it is at and can see the transponder is not working). The controllers also did not coordinate transition of directing and monitoring the GOL flight from Manaus’s responsibility to Brasilia Center’s responsibility so no one noticed that that aircraft was missing completely from thier displays – that’s why the question regarding the GOL, according to the filed flight plans it should be there on their screens if it was on schedule but it was not there.

    • Luis Carlos de Oliveira

      Mr Bo, please consider this:
      Mr Bo’s text: No words of hate, just frustration when encountering the blind patriotic ignorance that is ever so present in ever so many brazilians.

      The same “blind patriotic ignorance” added by discrimination and exacerbation of racial supremacy and superiority are found in most of yours and Mr Sharkey’s xenophobic texts. Who gave you guys the rights of making references to other people and other cultures in such maners and such words ???
      Then, some people, mostly american people, ask each other why such “anti-american” feelings are spreading out all around the world… Just beacuse of people like you guys.

      Mr Bo’s text: Maybe my opinions and Joe’s are similiar because we know what transpired

      How in the hell do you know what has transpired? Are you also part of the Legacy crew? Or, part of the investigative team? Or you are there just to spread the word that the two american pilots (one italian-american and the other argentinen-american) did not make any mistake, but the limited-english-vocabulary tower operators did ?

      Mr Bo’s text: not to mention the brazilian ATC system which besides being antiquated, has been problematic for decades

      Give me a break ! What has the International Comitee for international aviation safety or whathever it is called, has done so far to correct those decades of problems?? Did they do anything ? Decades of antiquated equipment added with decades of problems should have been already taken care of. My God! “Decades” may mean thirty, fourty or even eighty years of mismanegement!
      And so many of you guys still flying in our skies… How strange that sounds to my poor ears… because, if specialized people like Mr Sharkey and maybe yourself are aware of those decades of problems and still fly our skyies, imagine “ignorant” people like me, my family and all other “ignorant brazilians” (using your words) and their families flying brazilian skyies for all these decades without knowing that we may be taken into such a serious aerial accident.
      We need to hear what have to say those people who are paid for just avoiding such a dantesc scenario…

      Mr Bo’s text: And this is according to brazilian traffic controllers, brazilian pilots, as well as international pilots.

      Listen Mr Bo, I am not expert in the subject, but this subject has started to heat up my veins, and I promisse you that I will survey the subject better, but, as far as I know as a regular newspaper reader, the brazilian skyies have one of the lowest average of aeronautical incidents/accident in the whole world. I don’t know about the exact numbers, but I would be glad in surveying it and bring the real facts to this forum, to react to some of the statements that you and those people that you allways mention in your texts (brazilian traffic controllers, brazilian pilots, as well as international pilots) say about the nightmare that our country aerial space is.
      Please be patient and wait…

    • Luis Carlos de Oliveira

      Please, can anybody clarify this to me:
      (As I said before, I am just a regular passenger, don’t know anything about avionics)

      1- Is “everything” recorded in the voice recorder of an airplane, or the crew or the captain can turn the recorder on and off and just record part of what is talked in a flight ? My question is: can some of the conversation among the crew not be on the tapes, or EVERYTHING is on the tapes ?
      2- As the transcription says, about 2 and a half minutes after the colision, one pilot asks the other if the transponder was on, and the other reacts saying NO, the transponder was off. I wasn’t able to find in the newpaper report how the transponder comes back live again, moments after this episode. How has that happen, I mean, what kind of intervention could have been taken to make the equipment goes on again ?
      3- GOL in portuguese, is as GOAL in english. I wonder what kind of excitement drove that guy at the control tower when he says “Que gol 1907 Àƒ© este?”. In Brazil, Soccer GOALS have names, like: “Gol de placa”, “Gol 1000 do PelÀƒ©”, “Gol 980 do RomÀƒ¡rio”, and so on. I am not saying that there was a litle joke or fooling around between the controllers at the time, and they did not know about the accident at that point in time. But, this is something that deserves a closer look at, only by “hearing” the transcriptions.

    • Simpleton

      Luis – “the transponder, seems to me, should be the most precious instrument on board, and the pilots should be checking it every second”.

      The altimeter that feeds information to this peice of automated equipment is critical to flying the aircraft. The transponder itself is not. The ACAS / TCAS which automatically warns the crew when a potentially colliding aircraft is encroaching works if the altimeter systems and transponders on BOTH aircraft are functioning properly. The transponder itself is routinely “self-tested” prior to taking off but this does not ensure other aircraft and the ATC get the transmitted data nor that it can receive the data from another aircraft. After any pre-flight test, the crew does not test it again. (The systems even automatically locks out the test mode if the aircraft is in the air.) The ATC is responsible for monitoring its proper functioning external to the aircraft and advise the aircraft if it stops working. Sometimes, in order to check that their own monitoring systems are tracking the aircraft correctly the ATC will request the crew to momentarily press a special button (IDENT) which causes the signal transmitted from the aircraft to change information that the controllers can readily see on their displays. I think I saw one of the earliest FAB comments that this had been done at SJC so apparently the Legacy system was working properly at that time. In a modern cockpit with electronic flight displays, a transponder which loses power, is turned off or is indicated as failed by the electronics will result in a prominently displayed advisory of such condition. I don’t know, maybe the Legacy or GOL design does not have this condition / failure monitoring and indication capability. In any case it is a mystery why if the transponder ceased working on either the Legacy or the GOL that the ATC did not tell the pilots immediately. This was their job. There are only a couple of possible explanations as to why this did not happen. One is that one or both of the transponders failed over an area that is not observable by the secondary surveiliance systems on the ground (i.e. the ATC could not see this failure). Another is the altimeter system in either the Legacy or the GOL stopped supplying valid altitude information to their transponders (i.e. the ACAS/TCAS systems in both planes cannot warn of the potential collision without this information from both aircraft). Testing all the various components from the Legacy and studying the designs of both aircraft for what failures might occur and not result in a failure advisory in the respective cockpits must be a part of the full investigation. No matter how hard the engineers try, there is always something that can go wrong that the crew cannot readily see has happened – this is why the ATC has the responbility to monitor this always (where it is possible to work because ground stations do exist in that area) and tell the aircraft it is not working.

    • bo

      [quote]Joe Sharkey: THE DEFENSE RESTS ITS CASE !
      written by Luis Carlos de Oliveira, 2007-02-23 19:45:27

      Mr Bo,
      As you may already know about, Mr Sharkey, that NYT Editor who was in the Legacy Jet accident has “called for a rest” in his website yesterday. I am sure you know who I am talking about: Your and his thougts are very similar…
      Anyways, why don’t you take his wise action as an example and call a rest yourself ??
      Doing so, you will avoid us to read such ignorant words full of hate every day in this forum, and will let other people to show their opinions without having anybody misinterpretring and twisting what is stated here.
      You Idiot Ass Hole !
      Out of Fucus !
      Out of date !
      Out of this world !

      [/quote]

      No words of hate, just frustration when encountering the blind patriotic ignorance that is ever so present in ever so many brazilians.

      Maybe my opinions and Joe’s are similiar because we know what transpired, not to mention the brazilian ATC system which besides being antiquated, has been problematic for decades. And this is according to brazilian traffic controllers, brazilian pilots, as well as international pilots.

      Do you even consider their statements? Or are you just looking for any excuse whatsoever to deflect blame and accept responsibility?

    • Luis Carlos de Oliveira

      Joe Sharkey: THE DEFENSE RESTS ITS CASE !
      Mr Bo,
      As you may already know about, Mr Sharkey, that NYT Editor who was in the Legacy Jet accident has “called for a rest” in his website yesterday. I am sure you know who I am talking about: Your and his thougts are very similar…
      Anyways, why don’t you take his wise action as an example and call a rest yourself ??
      Doing so, you will avoid us to read such ignorant words full of hate every day in this forum, and will let other people to show their opinions without having anybody misinterpretring and twisting what is stated here.
      You Idiot Ass Hole !
      Out of Fucus !
      Out of date !
      Out of this world !

    • bo

      [quote]written by Luis Carlos de Oliveira, 2007-02-21 12:15:29

      P.S. Suggestion to he US pilots in general: Learn a second language. It will help yoou guys a lot in communicating with foreing people. As it does to me.[/quote]

      See, that’s prideful ignorant brazilians like yourself problem, it’s the ATC that needs to know how to speak english in every country on planet earth, that’s a given, even to ignorant people like yourself. But naturally it should be “different” for brazil. Are you that mentally handicapped?

      [quote]- because you don’t even f**king have electricity throughout your entire country, who’s f**king fault is that??
      It is the vendors fault! How come one can sell eletronic instruments to somebody in an area where they are unusable? I have the answer to you: Bribing them out ! That is the way multimilionary sales like this happens. This is the way one sells radars to be installed into the midlle of the virgin amazon jungle without electricity… The vendors with their “convincing technique$$$” and those 100 politicians you’ve mentioned should all be also indicted into trials too.[/quote]

      It’s the vendors of electronic equipment fault that there are area’s of brazil that don’t have electricity?? Call me crazy, but seems to me that the buck stops with the brazilian gov’t. on that one Luis Carlos da Silva (A brazilian citizen).

    • Luis Carlos de Oliveira

      Mr Bo, You are out of focus.
      — there is NOTHING that has shown that is was “turned off”
      I haven’t stated that SOMEBODY has turned it off. You are interpreting it this way… I am refereing possibly (turned off) by an electric failure, or by a defective equipment, or also by a human intervention. Turned off doesn’t mean that the pilots did it. You are assuming I stated it…
      Besides, after so many odd things since the beginning of the flight like the misunderstanding between the humans and also between the electronic machines both at the plane and at the control centers, the transponder, seems to me, should be the most precious instrument on board, and the pilots should be checking it every second… It is increadilbe that this preciousity was just off! This is what doesn’t fit.
      Maybe yourself should stuff a big Bib’Sfiha in your own mouth before keep saying insanities like you are doing. By the way: uneducatedly…

      — because you don’t even f**king have electricity throughout your entire country, who’s f**king fault is that??
      It is the vendors fault! How come one can sell eletronic instruments to somebody in an area where they are unusable? I have the answer to you: Bribing them out ! That is the way multimilionary sales like this happens. This is the way one sells radars to be installed into the midlle of the virgin amazon jungle without electricity… The vendors with their “convincing technique$$$” and those 100 politicians you’ve mentioned should all be also indicted into trials too.

      — A bunch of rehearsed lies???????
      Well, Mr Bo, I really wich I made a wrong assumption here, but, the leads to solve these “black holes” into the whole story told by the Legaccy crew are becoming more clear every day and those evidence are “heating” this environment to a point where many people are starting to get too ungry and exceeding themselves in their statements…

      — The travel situation in brazil since the accident??
      — Statements from Brazilian air controllers themselves about their working conditions, training, and compensation.
      This is my point: You -and many others like you- are focusing in the wrong way. These subjects -and many others you’ve mentioned so far in your texts- have absolutly nothing to do with the fact that the transponder was off (if you like, instead of “turned off”). That is the most important point to focus on. Every thing else, including the high criminal rates and the carnaval fever in Rio, as unapropriately mentioned by Mr Sharkey in his site, are completly out of this scope, and lead regular people like me, to get suspicious on “why to insist so much in those terms”, stressing out who is interested only in knowing the truth.

      I hope you calm down and reach the average level of talking and writing of this forum. Most of the people have names, except a few who doens’t whant other people to know who they are, and I, particularly would love if you call me by my name instead of those funny names you’ve been calling everybody else in this forum.

      Luis Carlos de Oliveira
      A brazilian citizen

    • bo

      [quote]But, my question is very simple: What will happen to professionals like Mr Sharkey and the others inside the Legaccy, if what they are declaring is proven to be a bunch of rehearsed lies ???[/quote]

      A bunch of rehearsed lies???????

      [b]L-M-A-O![/b]

      Should we get the statements???? Each and every statement that has been made since this accident has happened????

      Because it would be fucking [b]EMBARRASING[/b] for brazilians!!!

      Blaming the americans within a few hours???

      Air stunts??

      The travel situation in brazil since the accident??

      Statements from Brazilian air controllers themselves about their working conditions, training, and compensation.

      Statements from domestic, brazilian, as well as international pilots in regards to “lost communications” on a [b]regular[/b] basis AND planes that are [b]LOST[/b] off the radar screen!!!!

      [b]I mean WTF!!! How in the living hell could you attempt to blame someone else when everyone knows the faults of the system in place??????[/b]

      It’s disgraceful!

    • bo

      [quote]I exort those men to make thing easier puting the truth on the table, quit this infantile task of blaming Brazil and its radars and black holes (by the way: all american made equipment, paid with extreme sacrifice by regular brazilian citizens like me). And, specialy to Mr Sharkey and his website: Your comments about my country, our people and our problems as a nation, makes my stomach feels sick! Please get back to your technical analysis on aeronautics and travelling. We don’t need your uneducated comment about our people. Specialy now when you are under so much pressure…

      Luis Carlos de Oliveira
      A brazilian citizen

      P.S. Suggestion to he US pilots in general: Learn a second language. It will help yoou guys a lot in communicating with foreing people. As it does to me.[/quote]

      Ok Luis, tell me this, if you buy equipment from the U.S., or Germany,, or Russia, or from fucking tin-buk-too, and it says that it has a radius of “X” kilometers, but you damn well know that you can’t put “operational” equipment within “X” kilometers all throughtout your country [b]because you don’t even fucking have electricity throughout your entire country[/b], who’s fucking fault is that??

      Could it be that you’re a backward-ass country??? Could it be that 100 of your politicians steal more than the total income of a city of 500,000??? I mean, I don’t know, I’m just brainstorming here.

    • bo

      [quote]The main focus of this terrible accident is been deviated from its real cause (on which I have no doubts of) that is, why the instrument that could prevent it was turned off.[/quote]

      Hey dickhead, there is NOTHING that has shown that is was “turned off”. It may have not been working correctly, it may have had other problems, and it may have been “turned off”, but until you have PROOF of that, why don’t you put a “bib’s fiha” in your mouth and wait.

    • Luis Carlos de Oliveira

      What if all this bullshit are pure lies ??
      We are facing to a terrible “horror circus” when we read anything related to this sad story: Now the adjectives are coming down to the drain level when some of the protagonists (including Mr. Joe Sharkey, just visit his site…) make any mention or any comments to the brazilians or to Brazil itself.
      The main focus of this terrible accident is been deviated from its real cause (on which I have no doubts of) that is, why the instrument that could prevent it was turned off.
      What we see now, are those protagonists trying to offend our people, our men in dutties, our country, trying to put everybody -specially the brazilians- on their knees… This is not admissible ! Let us all go back to the center of the question and leave all this bullshit behind… Yes, americans also make mistakes… Mr. president Bush is one of the most erratic of you all. This is at least what more than 50% of the American Congress say… It is not just me. Therefore two “half-american” pilots can also make mistakes, specially those related to human communication with people of a different tribe…
      I am not involved whatsoever in this aeronautical industry. My relation to it is a mere now and then trips around the country and overseas AS A PASSENGER.
      Everything stated in these electronic media by these gentlemen make me feel sick and will concern me next time I need to get into an airplane.
      But, my question is very simple: What will happen to professionals like Mr Sharkey and the others inside the Legaccy, if what they are declaring is proven to be a bunch of rehearsed lies ???
      No mathers who is right and who is wrong at this point in time. The important goal to achieve is not to obstruct justice and to uncover the truth, and nowadays, that is not a very dificoult thing to do, due to the many and capable experts out in the field and also to the tremendous “on board” technology present on both the airplanes.
      I exort those men to make thing easier puting the truth on the table, quit this infantile task of blaming Brazil and its radars and black holes (by the way: all american made equipment, paid with extreme sacrifice by regular brazilian citizens like me). And, specialy to Mr Sharkey and his website: Your comments about my country, our people and our problems as a nation, makes my stomach feels sick! Please get back to your technical analysis on aeronautics and travelling. We don’t need your uneducated comment about our people. Specialy now when you are under so much pressure…

      Luis Carlos de Oliveira
      A brazilian citizen

      P.S. Suggestion to he US pilots in general: Learn a second language. It will help yoou guys a lot in communicating with foreing people. As it does to me.

    • Ric

      Bo
      I donÀ‚´t want to offend latinos. Some of the best times I had in junior high in Anaheim was fighting with them. Then weÀ‚´d all go down to the store for a Coke. Fun times.

      But in my original post, now forgotten, I just said that while travelling thru Miami on our way back to Brazil, we stopped at a Walmart to pick up a few items for Brazilian friends, and the non-English speaking sales lady was very helpful and had a nice smile, but only knew the one word, “housewares”, so whatever one asked for, that was the answer. Pots, pans, tape, suitcase, if we had needed car tires, “housewares”.

      But remember that this was a lady with a job, in Miami. By contrast when we used to drive down to Tijuana to get our cars upholstered, it seemed to me that the first and only phrase that the little Mexican kids learned in Ingleesh was, “My seester is a vorgin.” And then he tries to get you to follow him. Nice try.

    • bo

      Response to our ole buddy “give me patience”
      [quote]Ric, Simpleton and Bo, your stupidity must be congenital to be this perfect!!
      written by Give me patience!, 2007-02-19 03:10:01

      Lesson to your own words of wisdom:
      “The piots complain that the controllers just keep saying the same thing, same simple answers, indicating no understanding. Like asking a hispanic employee at a Miami Walmart where to find something, and whatever it is she says “housewares”. Learn a few words and phrases and punch the time clock and then blame anyone else available when something goes wrong.
      And that is exactly the problem…complacence and ignorance to the power of ten!!!
      Brazil is country of continental proportions and a language “other” than English with hundreds if not towsends of daily flights in 23 states. That is a little different from a Wal-Mart store that you worked for. [b]Because of your horrible analogy attempt to exemplify the Brazilians ATC with the Hispanics that donÀ¢€™t speak as well as you do working in your local wall- mart, I feel obligated to simplify this issue creating one that even YOU can understand of what really happened.[/quote][/b]

      Obviously YOU can’t understand what really happened. Who’s the blind, ignorant “patriot” here?? Listen to what the former [b]BRAZILIAN [/b] President of Air Traffic Controllers has to say….

      [quote]This is the understanding of [b]Ulisses Fontenele, the former president of the ABCTA[/b] (AssociaÀƒ§Àƒ£o Brasileira dos Controladores de TrÀƒ¡fego AÀƒ©reo – Brazilian Air Traffic Controllers Association). He has called attention to the fact that [b]less than 10% of the about 2,500 flight controllers working in Brazil are able to speak English fluently.[/b] And according to Fontenele, those who speak the language do it because they learned English on their own initiative.

      He believes that the US pilots Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino and the personnel at BrasÀƒ­lia’s control tower had a hard time understanding each other. For Fontenele, there was a series of mistakes that culminated in the collision. He compared what happened to the domino effect (in which a single piece knocks down hundreds of others) and said that the tragedy might have been avoided if a single error in the sequence had not been made.

      [b]”If there was no trouble with the English when they took off there would be no accident. But there was an endless number of errors. If only one of them had been eliminated we wouldn’t have any accident,” he stated.[/b]

      Fontenele says that nowadays Brazilian flight controllers have a six-month course where they learn some English language phraseology. The classes, which are part of what people learn to become a flight controller, teach typical terms of air control and some lingo and jargon.

      “After that, depending on where the professional is going to work, he doesn’t get any recycling or refreshing course. In six months there is very little you can learn. You learn the basic of the basic. This is a very big flaw in controllers’ training.”

      The former controller believes that the little knowledge of English is not enough when a flight controller has do deal with an abnormal situation as the one with the Legacy. [b]”If something out of the ordinary happens, the flight controller may not be able to communicate in English. After all, all he learned were typical and basic flight control phrases for when everything is normal in the air.” [/quote][/b]

      I guess you’re now going to say that the american pilots don’t speak english correctly huh?? It was the poor english on the part of the pilots??? LOL.

      Can you say, [b]”housewares”[/b]?

    • bo

      “Give me patience” – Who’s Stupid Here?
      [quote]he À¢€œdefense teamÀ¢€Â case for the two pilots is pivoted on pure absurdities because that is all theyÀ¢€™ve got, every other excuses and attempts to obfuscate and confuse this case with ATC problems, lack of technology and equipment, lack of clear English, Blind spots À¢€¦etc etc all have blown in their faces by their own official investigative agencies!!! We just have to be thankful that people like Ric, Simpleton and Bo would never qualify to be a part of any jury anywhere in the world other than their local kkk jury selection contests.
      Cheers!!! [/quote]

      Well if you can stop talking out of your ass and show some proof of what you’re saying that would be nice!! “Lack of clear english, blind spots, etc, etc, all have blown in their faces by their own official investigative agencies” That is what YOU said, correct??

      Can you show us this???

      Blind spots in brazil are a [b]KNOWN FACT[/b].

      Lost communication between tower and pilots are also [b]NOT UNCOMMON[/b]!

      And as far as speaking proper english, [b]READ ABOVE[/b], the [b]native english speaking pilots that also speak portuguese on this site have shown what a hackjob that this Folha journalist did, not only in her story, but the very TRANSLATION of english to portuguese!!!

      Lay down your brazilian flag, put away your kerosene, lighter and american flag, and take a look at the facts, will ya? Afterall, if there is PROOF of negligence, why hasn’t the brazilian gov’t. pressed charges???

      “Give me Patience”….[b]LMAO![/b] At least you got that much right.

    • bo

      [quote]Captain
      written by George Rock, 2007-02-19 21:14:16

      Thare are many misunderstanding and TECHNICAL bad translations on Eliane CantanhÀƒªde’s newspaper article publisehed on Sunday, FEV 18, 2007, Folha de SÀƒ£o Paulo newspaper.

      For exemple:

      She said the pilots had trouble with the aircraft radio equipment because the phrase:
      “CÀƒ©u a 2.500. Eu nÀƒ£o sei o que TX 35 significa… TN 25. Eu preciso aprender essa porra internacional. Merda.”

      In english: Ceiling 2500. I don’t know TX 35 and TN meanings. I need to learn that international f**king. Shit.”

      The pilots were talking about Terminal Aerodrome Forecast – TAF, a kind of Meteorological Bulletin for aviation. There was no relation to aircraft Radio Equipment. TX means Forecast Maximum Temperature and TN means Forecast Minimum Temperature.

      Other supposed phrase said by the pilot was about aircraft Weight and Balance calculation for landing after collision.

      Hot 2 – 1.600. Mil menos, uh… 8.800. Sim, devemos estar pousando em torno de 7.200.

      In english: 1600. Minus 1000, uh… 8800. Yes, we should be landing around 7200.

      Both pilots were very upset about the collision and they were calculating MLW = Maximum Landing Weight, Runway length for that Weight, Fuel Consumption, Heading, etc..

      Other insidious translated phrase:

      Journalist Eliane CantanhÀƒªde said insidiously on her newspaper article that pilots called injuriously the Air Traffic Controller as “fudidos” ( pronounce ‘foo-did-oo’ ). A bad translation for “f**k” word , an english interjection that express extreme irritation and disgust and , in aviation jargon, that word is refered to situation when the Air Traffic Controller abandon the aircraft without radio communications for a long period of time.

      We, professional pilots, always say:
      Those “FODÀƒƒO” abadoned us”.

      “FodÀƒ£o” ( pronounce like that ‘FÀƒ³-dun’ ) this word means a person who has behavior to think He or She is the best Air Traffic Controler on Earth, He or She is a “Know-it-all”, but have made many mistakes.

      So the correct translation to portugueses for “f**k” in situation like that is “FODÀƒƒO”, not “FUDIDOS”.

      “fudidos” is a very strong offensive word for Brazilian people. It means a form of put-down to the poorest people like a beggar without culture and job. It express contempt feelings.

      All Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder transcripted phrases published by Eliane CantanhÀƒªde were picked up from transcriptions without the correct sequence for flight phases. Not even the correct phrases timetable was published in GMT time ( = Greenwich Mean Time ) which is suitable for aviation time recording.

      The article did citation to Washington Time like that:

      1 Joe nÀƒ£o pode saber
      18:37:12
      (horÀƒ¡rio de Washington )

      In enghish:
      1 Joe cann’t know ( …they were talking about Center of Gravity – CG of the aircraft. The plane had not took off yet )
      18:37:12
      (Washington Time )

      The official Take off time was 14:51 Local Time = 17:51 GMT Time = 12:51 in Washington Time.

      But that Time in Washington, it should be 20:37:12 in Brasilia ( capital City ) and it should be 23:37:12 in Greenwich ( London ), on September 29, 2006.
      The official collision time was 16:56:54 Local Time = 19:56:54 GMT or = 14:56:54 in Washington.

      What did 18:37:12 Flight Phase Time refer to?

      That newspaper article does NOT deserve any TECHNICAL credibility.

      George Rock
      Airline Transport Pilot
      Flight Instructor ( Jets )

      Rio de Janeiro
      Copacabana
      Brazil [/quote]

      George, you really should send an email to Folha de Sao Paulo and let them know that the pilots weren’t only “on the money” about the english of the air traffic controllers, but it appears the same applies to their journalists as well.

      One would certainly think that she would’ve consulted a native english speaking pilot that also speaks portuguese before she jumped to conclusions and wrote her little bit and published it. Maybe sending it to Folha’s competitor would be better.

    • Ric

      I donÀ‚´t know anything about the G400/GIVSP. I know a little about the C-20G with the cargo door.

    • Simpleton

      Although they have problems with it here and there from time to time I thought the FAB settled on the issue of the small un-trafficed areas where thier primary radars didn’t provide coverage. Saw the color presentations made to the public down there some time back.

      As to the secondary radars on the ground (i.e. the ones that can pick up FUNCTIONING transponders), of course there are large areas they don’t exist (it’s a mighty big country with one heck of a lot of undeveloped and inaccessable area – no power either). The traffic control system uses info from both the primary and secondary info sources. I can only speculate that it either uses last known altitude from the secondary radars and or the “planned” altitude to make it’s presentation to the controllers. If the controllers believed the Legacy was at 38K something in the system had to tell them it was at 38K. There should be a way to discern whether that indication to the controllers was from 1) the secondary radar pickup, 2) a directed and confirmed controler-aircraft communication exchange, or 3) the “plan” programmed in from the originating center. With no altitude info from any of these, the aircraft still should up in the primary radar returns (unless it presents too small a cross section, is mostly or totally composite construction, etc.? the primary radar is hosed again?). If a target shows up without altitude info it should generate a lot of activity at the ATC center (which is also thier military defense station), maybe even result in scrambled fighter jets.

      So back to the question – how can the controllers at Brasilia ATC state that they were “sure” that the Legacy was at 38K when obviously it was not? Does thier system lie to them in a way they can’t instantly recognize in the case of a non-functioning transponder? Did someone check-off altitude confirmation exchange between the ATC and the Legacy? Did the Legacy not even appear on their screens?

      Anyway, when the full transcripts are available I’m sure I’ll find error number two in this chain occurred before the potential radar tracking and altitude indication issue did.

      Ric, would the correct aeronautical term be wank? GIV-SP IS FROM THE 1980’s although that model continued to be built for a while longer in parallel with the GV when that came out. Lot in common in the structural part of the manufaturing, just about nothing else is though (including the cockpit where the hot shot jocks reside).

      As to CD’s and DVD’s, it is the norm for training and maintenance data tranfer for both avionics equipment and new aircraft deliveries. Also niffty is all the CBT’s you can get. Also have PC based tools for doing your flight plan back at your hotel room for loading into your FMS when you get to the airport at whatever ungodly hour. I don’t like the idea of having a laptop out in the flight deck vs a class II EFB but hey, these guys had what they had and needed it to try to deal with a situation they shouldn’t have found themselve in.

    • Ric

      Roger that, George, the translation was poorly done and misleading throughout.

    • George Rock

      Captain
      Thare are many misunderstanding and TECHNICAL bad translations on Eliane CantanhÀƒªde’s newspaper article publisehed on Sunday, FEV 18, 2007, Folha de SÀƒ£o Paulo newspaper.

      For exemple:

      She said the pilots had trouble with the aircraft radio equipment because the phrase:
      “CÀƒ©u a 2.500. Eu nÀƒ£o sei o que TX 35 significa… TN 25. Eu preciso aprender essa porra internacional. Merda.”

      In english: Ceiling 2500. I don’t know TX 35 and TN meanings. I need to learn that international fucking. Shit.”

      The pilots were talking about Terminal Aerodrome Forecast – TAF, a kind of Meteorological Bulletin for aviation. There was no relation to aircraft Radio Equipment. TX means Forecast Maximum Temperature and TN means Forecast Minimum Temperature.

      Other supposed phrase said by the pilot was about aircraft Weight and Balance calculation for landing after collision.

      Hot 2 – 1.600. Mil menos, uh… 8.800. Sim, devemos estar pousando em torno de 7.200.

      In english: 1600. Minus 1000, uh… 8800. Yes, we should be landing around 7200.

      Both pilots were very upset about the collision and they were calculating MLW = Maximum Landing Weight, Runway length for that Weight, Fuel Consumption, Heading, etc..

      Other insidious translated phrase:

      Journalist Eliane CantanhÀƒªde said insidiously on her newspaper article that pilots called injuriously the Air Traffic Controller as “fudidos” ( pronounce ‘foo-did-oo’ ). A bad translation for “fuck” word , an english interjection that express extreme irritation and disgust and , in aviation jargon, that word is refered to situation when the Air Traffic Controller abandon the aircraft without radio communications for a long period of time.

      We, professional pilots, always say:
      Those “FODÀƒƒO” abadoned us”.

      “FodÀƒ£o” ( pronounce like that ‘FÀƒ³-dun’ ) this word means a person who has behavior to think He or She is the best Air Traffic Controler on Earth, He or She is a “Know-it-all”, but have made many mistakes.

      So the correct translation to portugueses for “fuck” in situation like that is “FODÀƒƒO”, not “FUDIDOS”.

      “fudidos” is a very strong offensive word for Brazilian people. It means a form of put-down to the poorest people like a beggar without culture and job. It express contempt feelings.

      All Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder transcripted phrases published by Eliane CantanhÀƒªde were picked up from transcriptions without the correct sequence for flight phases. Not even the correct phrases timetable was published in GMT time ( = Greenwich Mean Time ) which is suitable for aviation time recording.

      The article did citation to Washington Time like that:

      1 Joe nÀƒ£o pode saber
      18:37:12
      (horÀƒ¡rio de Washington )

      In enghish:
      1 Joe cann’t know ( …they were talking about Center of Gravity – CG of the aircraft. The plane had not took off yet )
      18:37:12
      (Washington Time )

      The official Take off time was 14:51 Local Time = 17:51 GMT Time = 12:51 in Washington Time.

      But that Time in Washington, it should be 20:37:12 in Brasilia ( capital City ) and it should be 23:37:12 in Greenwich ( London ), on September 29, 2006.
      The official collision time was 16:56:54 Local Time = 19:56:54 GMT or = 14:56:54 in Washington.

      What did 18:37:12 Flight Phase Time refer to?

      That newspaper article does NOT deserve any TECHNICAL credibility.

      George Rock
      Airline Transport Pilot
      Flight Instructor ( Jets )

      Rio de Janeiro
      Copacabana
      Brazil

    • bo

      [quote]Bo you are an idiot!!!
      written by Your concience, 2007-02-18 14:50:51[/quote]

      and Jose, it’s conScience, ok??

      And be careful with statements about balls in people’s chins, we just released your mother, the 3 of us, her orifices were full!

    • bo

      [quote]laptop
      written by realgivp, 2007-02-19 15:14:05

      ric and simpleton

      Do you know whether the legacy is being outfitted with EFBÀ¢€™s (electronic flight bags) to replace the paper approach charts?? If they are that would explain the À¢€œlaptopÀ¢€Â in the cockpit and the À¢€œinferenceÀ¢€Â the article makes that they were watching a DVD movie.

      Is that what you were getting at in your post ric? [/quote]

      You tell me REALGIVP, does it seem more logical to you that they were watching a fucking movie, or talking about DVD’s in relation to the functionality of the plane?

      Did you hear the brazilian story that they were doing “stunts” in the air, taking the “new” plane for a “spin”, so to speak. You’ve probably also heard the testimony of the people on the plane how absurd and what an outright LIE that was, didn’t ya??

      Tell me this, of all the statements that have been made, all the testimony, what statements can you unequivocably say have been lies, or erroneous?

      Statements from the brazilians.

    • Norman Kemble

      laptop
      ric and simpleton

      Do you know whether the legacy is being outfitted with EFBÀ¢€™s (electronic flight bags) to replace the paper approach charts?? If they are that would explain the À¢€œlaptopÀ¢€Â in the cockpit and the À¢€œinferenceÀ¢€Â the article makes that they were watching a DVD movie.

      Is that what you were getting at in your post ric?

    • Norman Kemble

      Simpleton IÀ¢€™ve had this discussion with ricÀ¢€¦À¢€¦..flying and being a pilot is what I do. NOT who I am. There are way too many pilots out there who canÀ¢€™t wait to tell everyone who they are and what they do. I could care less and took the username on this site to separate from the fakes that were on here in the beginning. If I get to fly a GV so what and if I donÀ¢€™t who cares, not me, IÀ¢€™m just here to post what I know about this.

      You need to get some tutoring on the Gulfstream models. The 550 and the 450 are the GV and the GIV with the newer avionics. It will create one common type rating for both airplanes as well as allow you to fly a GV, but not a GIV or GIVSP.

      ASC 190 came out for the GIV to upgrade it to a GIVSP.

      Enough airplane nonsense, IÀ¢€™ll leave the reminiscing to ric.

      Anyone know why the NTSB web site is down?? Been trying to get on to see if the 290 pages are posted there.

    • Ric

      Robert234?
      Bob, Joe reads this blog so I guess youÀ‚´ve told him.

      Refresh my memory as to what Bin Laden did to people from the US in 2002. The hole world is watching….

    • pwnzer

      The big problem that is happening now in the flights is not related to flight control, but due to overbooking.

      This is not something restricted to the airports tough … there were some cases of overbooking on cruisers also …

    • Robert234

      Joesharkey
      I would like to tell Joe Sharkey that his words just justify why Bin Laden did what he did to people from the USA in 2002! Defending the irresponsible pilots just because they are americans show what the hole world knows, people like him motivated Bin laden’s terrible plans!

    • bo

      LOL….fucking brazilian aviation at it’s finest.

      Who was the first to fly in aviation history???

      Well, Santos Dumont of course! 😉

    • bo

      Quando o centro de BrasÀƒ­lia chama o de Manaus para perguntar por que o Boeing nÀƒ£o tinha entrado nos radares do Cindacta-1, apesar de previsto e de ter sido anunciado pelo Cindacta-4, a resposta do controlador de Manaus Àƒ©: [b]”UÀƒ©! Que Gol 1907 Àƒ© esse?”[/b]

    • Ric

      Is Norman Kemble a Conspiracy Theorist? If so he can work on the Colares Phenomena; whether VW put DKV out of business; and what happened to EspecÀƒ­fica Pessoa.

    • bo

      As 290 pÀƒ¡ginas com as transcriÀƒ§Àƒµes das conversas dos pilotos do jato Legacy e dos controladores brasileiros [b]reforÀƒ§am que uma sucessÀƒ£o de erros, mal-entendidos e uma certa inexperiÀƒªncia ou incompetÀƒªncia causaram o maior acidente da histÀƒ³ria da aviaÀƒ§Àƒ£o brasileira[/b]: a queda do Boeing da Gol, em 29 de setembro do ano passado, com 154 pessoas a bordo.

      As transcriÀƒ§Àƒµes confirmam a informaÀƒ§Àƒ£o publicada pela Folha em 2 de novembro de que o [b]controlador de SÀƒ£o JosÀƒ©, de onde decolou o jato, liberou o vÀƒ´o citando 37 mil pÀƒ©s, sem detalhar as trÀƒªs altitudes previstas no plano de vÀƒ´o original.[/b]

    • bo

      Oh, nÀƒ£o! De volta ÀƒÂ  toca do coelho!

      Talvez seja a afliÀƒ§Àƒ£o da ressaca de Carnaval, mas no Brasil eles voltaram ao assunto, com os jornais hoje afobadamente trazendo trechos das transcriÀƒ§Àƒµes das gravaÀƒ§Àƒµes nas cabines de comando (que eles sequer deveriam ter enquanto as investigaÀƒ§Àƒµes prosseguem), na interminÀƒ¡vel missÀƒ£o de pegar como bodes expiatÀƒ³rios dois pilotos americanos enquanto acobertam as [b]falhas evidentes do controle de trÀƒ¡fego aÀƒ©reo brasileiro e os controladores de vÀƒ´o mal pagos e mal treinados[/b] que estavam de plantÀƒ£o em 29 de setembro, quando eles estavam tranqÀƒ¼ilamente desavisados de que duas aeronaves voavam em uma rota de colisÀƒ£o na AmazÀƒ´nia que acabou matando 154 pessoas.

      Eis uma amostra, com alguns comentÀƒ¡rios meus, da ediÀƒ§Àƒ£o de hoje do jornal “Folha de S.Paulo”. Obrigado, como sempre, ao correspondente Richard Pedicini pela traduÀƒ§Àƒ£o:

    • bo

      CantanhÀƒªde teve acesso ÀƒÂ s 290 pÀƒ¡ginas de transcriÀƒ§Àƒµes das conversas dos pilotos do Legacy e dos controladores de trÀƒ¡fego aÀƒ©reo brasileiros e concluiu que “uma sucessÀƒ£o de erros, mal-entendidos e uma certa inexperiÀƒªncia ou incompetÀƒªncia” causaram o acidente. Para ela, as transcriÀƒ§Àƒµes “deixam claro” que a dificuldade de comunicaÀƒ§Àƒ£o entre os pilotos do Legacy e o controlador responsÀƒ¡vel pelo vÀƒ´o impediu a dupla –[b]por trÀƒªs vezes[/b]– de esclarecer se deveria seguir a 37 mil pÀƒ©s de altitude. O plano de vÀƒ´o previa uma mudanÀƒ§a para 36 mil pÀƒ©s, exatamente na regiÀƒ£o onde o acidente ocorreu.

      Sharkey nÀƒ£o contradiz os dados da reportagem, mas defende os pilotos americanos –Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino–, ao afirmar que o controle de trÀƒ¡fego aÀƒ©reo do Brasil “Àƒ© uma bagunÀƒ§a” e que os controladores de trÀƒ¡fego aÀƒ©reo tÀƒªm um inglÀƒªs “pobre”.

    • bo

      [quote]The À¢€œdefense teamÀ¢€Â case for the two pilots is pivoted on pure absurdities because that is all theyÀ¢€™ve got, every other excuses and attempts to obfuscate and confuse this case with ATC problems, lack of technology and equipment, lack of clear English, Blind spots À¢€¦etc etc all have blown in their faces by their own official investigative agencies!!! We just have to be thankful that people like Ric, Simpleton and Bo would never qualify to be a part of any jury anywhere in the world other than their local kkk jury selection contests.
      Cheers!!! [/quote]

      Blind spots in brazilian radar, loss of communiation with the tower, are REGULAR happenings in brazil. And this is from statements made by BRAZILIAN air traffic controllers!!

      Guess they’re part of the american conspiracy, eh numbnutz?

    • bo

      in the radar, places where communication was NOT POSSIBLE. These are [b]faults[/b] in the [b]brazilian[/b] aeronautical system, plain and simple.

    • Ric

      Pwnzer
      If Brazil is going to keep slots open for foreign carriers, they are obligated to provide English communications at major hubs and enroute. ItÀ‚´s a moot point whether the Legacy was on an international flight or not.

      The problem is not the maps but the equipment on the ground. DonÀ‚´t say “Gotcha covered” unless you actually do.

      Thee was a time in Brazil during the piston age when nobody in his right mind would fly from south to north direct. They went up the coast, turned west at BraganÀƒ§a, ParÀƒ¡ and headed up the river.

      Stuff no one cares about:
      When one is flying over the rainforest it looks like a huge plantation of Broccoli, except that brocolli is usually planted in rows.

    • bo

      [quote]ThatÀ‚´s the trouble with official translators not conversant with technical terminology. [/quote]

      LOL…you can’t get a brazilian to translate 85% of english spoken by native english speakers 100% when it’s NOT technical.

      Bottom line to me seems that we have had confirmation of BLIND SPOTS

    • Ric

      FG-1610
      Time was when pilots had two options for charts and approach plates, the U.S. government, their plates came bound in booklet form, and Jeppesen, a loose leaf notebook which only updated chnges.

      Now itÀ‚´s electronic, laptops are passe, even notebook computers have given way to specialized gear like the Fujitsu Electronic Flight Bag for under $2000, replaces that big heavy flight bag with all the paperwork with a bag/computer/wx aid. It reads the charts and plates off DVDs.

    • EfoYao

      Hmmm
      Jose Miranda, your article shows you to be confused and inexperienced. Totally ridiculous.

    • pwnzer

      Folha
      There is an article on Folha’s website today about the analyzis of NYT’s Joe Sharkey about the accident.

      He surely show a different point of view in the subject. He talks about the brazilian media search for scape goats …

      http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/cotidiano/ult95u131979.shtml

      Well … I work on a huge american company here in Brazil and I know that the average english here is bad, even for people who depends on it for living (myself included …), but one important point is that it wasn’t an international flight, so I’m not sure if it was mandatory for the controllers to have a good english (I’m not saying that they shoudn’t … I’m just saying that maybe you shouldn’t blame them for that … however hired them and put them on this position should be blamed).

      One thing that I wanted to ask the guys here that know more about flight stuff is – why there are so many blank spots in flight maps? Is it possible to avoid them somehow (either through better tech or changing the flight paths)?

      Most brazilians know about the mess in the flights here … specially the ones that live in SÀƒ£o Paulo … so I really think that even if the pilots could avoid the accident somehow, it would be a lot to ask for in this scenario … but still, their role on the accident must be clarified …

      I don’t understand the part about the DVD. Is it normal to have pilots consulting this kind of stuff on the fly?

      And what about the crash? The dude from NYT said that it was possible that the impact didn’t happened … only parts of the bigger airplane hit the smaller one (exploded on air maybe?). How is it possible to hit another airplane on air and be left almost unscathered?

    • Simpleton

      Actually, Rics excerpts and re-translations above are the first I’m hearing of anything passable as facts. (I’m still absolutely amazed how the Brazillian media has the latest poop even from my neck of the woods before any of the national or local newscasts get around to presenting it here. How do they do that so consistently – they’re very worldly, very good!)

      Anyway, before seeing the above (cynical soul that I am), unless it was reported as a quote coming from a named FAB officer it didn’t carry much weight with me. But of course non-mil / non-named sources gave GIV everything he needed to be 100% accurate within days of the event.

      ASC-190 Hmmm, wonder if one would go check the registry for tail number GV501 whether that would be something from the 80’s? And what’s this about the Legacy’s transponder not working with 21st century TCAS? I don’t beleive that at all. TCAS / ACAS -7 has been around for a bit – what vintage is Embraer cranking out? Do the people who buy these birds in other countries get special permission to bring them home so they can gut them and bring the avionics up to standards – I bet not!

      Anyway, so far what I’ve got is the Legacy crew didn’t get confirmation of planned altitudes along the route from departure control (except for the initial assigned altitude). That’s sad and that’s where the crew made their first mistake. Stop right there, you need go no farther. I’ll wait for the original transcripts in English.

    • Ric

      ItÀ‚´s fun, sad at the same time, to see you hyperventilating. Have you exchanged posts with A. Brazilian lately? HeÀ‚´s waiting to discuss your issue of Stoopid Peeple I Have Met in the USA.

    • Athina Onassis

      TCAS
      at least the brazilian pilots know how to turn the TCAS on. They also usually know how to fly an airplane.

    • Norman Kemble

      THOSE GUYS FORGOT US…….????????????????

      After over an hour of trying to communicate with the legacy ???????? THOSE guys forgot us????

      Are you serious????

      ric and simpleton I hope your blood money spends well.

    • Ric

      Are those posts an example of your professionalism, sizzlechest? I knew you had some kind of agenda. I was just reporting what came out in todayÀ‚´s paper, of which 381,252 copies were printed. So suck it up and go to bed. And you still need to listen more to your wife.

    • Ric

      Tower talk: SÀƒ£o Jose dos Campos to the departing Legacy; SJC to Brasilia; Legacy to Brasilia Center; Manaus talking to Brasilia; Brasilia to Recife; but I only want to leave you with the last one, itÀ‚´s late, BRASILIA NOVAMENTE PARA MANAUS (Brasilia talks to Manaus a second time): (unlike the previous, of course this was original in Portuguese)

      B: Hey man, itÀ‚´s like this, I gotta flight plan here for Gol 1907. From Eduardo Gomes [Manaus Airport] to Brasilia. You guys passed him off to me and so far he hasnÀ‚´t called. Where is this guy?

      M: He hasnÀ‚´t called?

      B: One passed close to him. No. But someone was at flight level 36 or 38. And thatÀ‚´s where my doubts come in.

      M: Yeah, itÀ‚´s a November [U.S. registry]. The pilot said he hit something and he dunno what it was.

      B: Ih. Carai.

      M: Yeah, it broke his wing tip and he doesnÀ‚´t know what it was. But the Gol was at 370. You had told me [the Legacy] was at 360, right?

      B: Roger.

      (controller talking in background): Jomarcello said it was at 36. (Sargeant Jomarcelo Fernandes dos Santos is the controller who was working at that time and was responsible for the sector in which the Legacy was flying)

      B: Talk to me, Manaus!

      M: Any word from the Gol?

      B: No. Any sign of him there?

      M: Gol One Niner Zero Seven?

      B: Did he actually take off?

      M: No.

      B: Nothing at all?

      M: Nothing! Nothing! Nothing!

      B: Who do you want to talk to?

      M: IÀ‚´ll call you back, IÀ‚´ll call you back

      -30-

    • Ric

      8. CONTATO COM O POLAR (CONTACT WITH POLAR) 20:01.19.2…Pilot 1, “ItÀ‚´s an emergency”….2, “Yeah, shout it, louder”….1, “Where, man…we been here before? God, what a hell”……2, “WeÀ‚´re on course…weÀ‚´re on altitude…I donÀ‚´t know what the hell we just hit…”…2, “I never have seen this, man….I was trying to call someone…hang on….”1, Got it done, luckily…”

      20:22:59.1….After landing at Cachimbo [thatÀ‚´s CXB 115.1, CXB 350, S09 21.7 by W054 54.6, on the 330.0 out of Brasilia], Pilot 1, “Good job, good job, well, weÀ‚´re okay”…..2.”xy#$x, weÀ‚´re alive. X@#$XZ.” 1, “I donÀ‚´t know what the hell….if we hit another plane, thereÀ‚´s a plane up there in trouble..and thatÀ‚´s what I was worried about….I didnÀ‚´t want to be in that situation….we were at 37 thousand and I was trying to communicate….up there thereÀ‚´s nothing, nothing (obviously means no one listening)”. 2, “And what if we hit someone….I mean, we were at the right altitude….

      (Another voice, 4: “At no time were we cleared to change altitudes….so, I stayed on the altitude…2: “Those guys forgot us. The lst frequency forgot us completely, and I began to worry. ThatÀ‚´s not right…I went a long time without talking to anyone. WeÀ‚´re alive…”1: “But IÀ‚´m worried about the other plane…..if it wasnÀ‚´t another plane we hit, wht could it have been?” 2: At 37 thousand feet, it was a big hit no matter what it was….”1: “No chance”….

    • Ric

      5. DESCONHECIMENTO DO MAPA (UNFAMILIARITY WITH THE MAP) 18:42:09.2….”I just want to confirm that weÀ‚´re on the right course”. [they discuss their upcoming landing]. 18:52:59.3, Pilot 2, “1,600…A thousand less, uh, 8,800….Pilot 1, If I read this right, we should be able to do it….[doubts about where they are]{says Folha]…I donÀ‚´t know which river this is, San FÀƒ©lix?”…19:36:27.3 “Where are we?’ “I dunno”….Colunista, se vocÀƒª acha que Àƒ© fÀƒ¡cil sempre saber aonde estÀƒ¡ voando na Amazonia, deve fazer um voo no oeste do PiauÀƒ­…..Ora bolas….E chama-se de CARTA, nÀƒ£o de Mapa.

      6. PROBLEMAS COM O RÀƒÂDIO (PROBLEMS WITH THE RADIO)18:51:20.6. After seven short quotes re: chart terminology, at the bottom it says, pilot 2, “Gotta problem with this radio”.

      7. O CHOQUE COM O BOEING DA GOL (COLLISION) 19:56:54.0…Sound of impact….”automatic pilot”….”What the hell was that?”….”Okay, just pilot the airplane, man”……..metallic sound, three times……”Just pilot the airplane”……19:57:34.7 “We lost the winglet”…….”We lost it? Where did that [ ] come from?”……..”Okay, weÀ‚´re going down…declaring an emergency…sit down”……..(pilot 1, blank blank)….Pilot 2, “I got the closest airport, right there, see for yourself…”pilot 1, heavy breathing, “Was it on your side?” 2, “Yeah, no, yeah….I got it [translator apparently thinks I GOT IT means I understand, or (entendi).]

      More quotes, ends with staement that still canÀ‚´t pull up control on the radio….

      Then the lines about the TCAS, previously reported; then, “Okay. Just pay attention to traffic….weÀ‚´re gonna make it, weÀ‚´re gonna make it, weÀ‚´re gonna make it…I know we will…

    • Give me patience!

      Ric, Simpleton and Bo, your stupidity must be congenital to be this perfect!!
      Lesson to your own words of wisdom:
      “The piots complain that the controllers just keep saying the same thing, same simple answers, indicating no understanding. Like asking a hispanic employee at a Miami Walmart where to find something, and whatever it is she says “housewares”. Learn a few words and phrases and punch the time clock and then blame anyone else available when something goes wrong.
      And that is exactly the problem…complacence and ignorance to the power of ten!!!
      Brazil is country of continental proportions and a language “other” than English with hundreds if not towsends of daily flights in 23 states. That is a little different from a Wal-Mart store that you worked for. Because of your horrible analogy attempt to exemplify the Brazilians ATC with the Hispanics that donÀ¢€™t speak as well as you do working in your local wall- mart, I feel obligated to simplify this issue creating one that even YOU can understand of what really happened.

      Two Norwegian pilots fly to Mccamey Texas to pick up a plane. They donÀ¢€™t speak any English and they never been to the States. They donÀ¢€™t know the physical size of the US, they never flown in the US air space before but what they do have plenty off, is a head full of pre conceived ideas of how vast and beautiful it may be with À¢€œwild open spacesÀ¢€Â.
      Taken off from Mccamey Texas the good old control tower boy says the same thing heˢ۪s been saying for past 20 years, for all the planes that are flying to Washington DC, 370 !!!
      Now the good old boy in the control tower in Mccamey, Texas Pop. 6,000 never herd, donˢ۪t care and donˢ۪t give a ratˢ۪s ass of where Norway may be !!!
      Do you think Ric, for a second that the old boy at the control tower in Mccamey Texas really meant for these two pilots to fly all the way across the USA air space, the Atlantic Ocean and the Northern Seas over Oslo to freaking Trondhaim, Norway at 370 ???

      The À¢€œdefense teamÀ¢€Â case for the two pilots is pivoted on pure absurdities because that is all theyÀ¢€™ve got, every other excuses and attempts to obfuscate and confuse this case with ATC problems, lack of technology and equipment, lack of clear English, Blind spots À¢€¦etc etc all have blown in their faces by their own official investigative agencies!!! We just have to be thankful that people like Ric, Simpleton and Bo would never qualify to be a part of any jury anywhere in the world other than their local kkk jury selection contests.
      Cheers!!!

    • realgivpilot

      gee…….
      simpleton (and your username is correct) but if I remember right ASC 190 came out in the late 1980’s. So you are wrong about the SP, but then again of course you would be

    • Rem

      Crazy
      Sounds to me like the author of the articles is trying to find blame where there IS NONE. No mention of laptop? DVD? So what? What was the conversation going on with the BIG JET that crashed? Does it occur to you that the pilot error could have come from the BIG JET? As for bad English, yes, that’s a problem if they can’t issue the right coordinates in PLAIN ENGLISH and the pilot understands one thing when the tower means something else. The speculation of ‘inexperience’ is the author’s opinion. There is NOTHING to substantiate that. The whole article is all about “speculation” and not meat, no facts, no proof and no substantiation. What if the pilots are innocent and the tower is the one to blame? What if the pilots from the BIG jet made mistakes too? But let’s just blame the American pilots, Bush, or whoever. If the American pilots were guilty, then put them in jail for the crime, but you MUST HAVE PROOF not speculations to justify a tragedy. 😥

    • Norman Kemble

      ric
      And here I thought you retired to Brazil for Embraer, the weather and walking at 3am in your captain’s hat, EpauletÀ¢€™s and picking up meninas novas.

      Try taking some memantine before you post

    • Ric

      The pilots were recorded calling controllers “fugidos”. To the pilots, they had “been forgotten” by the contollers.

      HereÀ‚´s a graph in 9 sections. Washington time. 1. 18:37:12….JOE NÀƒƒO PODE SABER. (CANÀ‚´T LET JOE KNOW). Know what, some big problem? No, just discussing the fuel tanks and weight and balance. Big tanks are in front, got no aft pax, maybe.

      2. PROBLEMAS DE LINGUA (LANGUAGE PROBLEMS). Pilot 1, I wanna say that I wish sometimes that theyÀ‚´d just give us a straight answer [resposta simples] like…we were trying to get an altitude before takeoff and now this…sometimes this is hard……….they just keep saying, fly procedure Oren; Pilot 2, Yeah….Pilot one, when we switched to tower, they just said, position and takeoff [alinhar e decolar]”

      He was worried about taking off without hearing the right words. This is really hard for me to translate because I keep thinking “livre decolagem etc” and have to remember that everyone is speaking English.

      3. PROBLEMAS DE OPERAÀƒ‡ÀƒƒO (OPERATIONAL PROBLEMS)
      18:41:14.9 Pilot 1, IÀ‚´ve still got a problem trying to make this [FMS] work. [then they talk about the associated brochure and DVDs that apply to the FMS operation.

      4. BRINCADEIRAS NO AR (PLAYING AROUND IN THE AIR)18:43:07.9, over Brasilia. Sounds like hot stuff? They are not talking about doing maneuvers, but of getting to see a bit of Rio on their next trip to pick up a plane. Yellow Journalism? They do mention getting to know the plane better, once back in Fort Lauderdale. As anyone would. At least go through some basic stuff. But not until later.

    • Simpleton

      Master Baiter
      Thanks Ric!

      Very nice RealG4(sp?)P –

      Tell me all YOU know about the GV that came out in 95 to replace the GIV/GIV-SP or the GV-SP (now called G500 or G550). What? Your opporunities, training and experience falling behind the times? (Oh, sorry, as a possible end user pilot you wouldn’t have gotten any chance to gain any exposure or experience with the GV until mid 97 nor with the SP flavor of it til sometime after 1/02).

      I agree there are many many broken things in the chain of events leading up to this tragedy and yes, the flight crew could of, should of, would of, was obligated to . . . Systemic problems are a bitch especially when you throw human issues into the fray. Ours is not the place to be Monday Night Football arm-chair quarterbacking on a Tuesday afternoon.

      What drives people to jump on others words or exploratory way of presenting other thoughts, information and possible considerations? If there are those that joust because the more hits and posts their articles get provides them with more income, so be it. I don’t care about that but I’m not insensitive to any of the victims here, not to the family, friends and relatives of those who did not survive this thing nor to those who remain amongst the living (i.e. the controllers, thier superior officers, the pilots and all who know them personnally).

      I’ve always said that keeping your eyes mostly trained out of the cockpit and not relying too heavily on the technology is where it’s at. Complacency comes all to quickly.

      As to the people issues involved, you’re right GIV, that’s not what I know best and ought to stay the heck out of it and stick to the nuts and bolts and wires and software and firmware and electronics and box to box signal protocols and data content, and failure modes and battle short contingencies, etc., etc., etc. I’m much more at home in dealing with the areas that pilots fear to tread.

      As to the Sharkey stuff disappearing, you said that had happened about the same time I started checking in on this site. I didn’t see those / don’t know for myself that they disappeared – I have to take your word on that. The ones I wanted you to find and search for me came after that point.

    • Ric

      Then they talk about what we have seen already, “Hey! You got the TCAS on?’ Then the other guy is supposed to say “Àƒ‰”. Which I donÀ‚´t get. But he continues immediately, “ItÀ‚´s off.” See, the translation is: Àƒ‰. O TCAS estÀƒ¡ desligado…but thatÀ‚´s a contaminated translation. He either said, “itÀ‚´s off” or “ItÀ‚´s not coming up” but I canÀ‚´t see him saying, “Right, itÀ‚´s disconnected.” He just wouldnÀ‚´t say it that way, and itÀ‚´s misleading to non-native speakers of English. Disconnected would mean the wires are not hooked up.

      So Honeywell says that yes, we have had problems with indavertant transition to Stand-By, but not with this model.

      12th paragraph, the “laptop” allegedly on the lap of one of the pilots and hiding the xponder readout. So Brazilian commentator or commentatrix assumes they are watching a movie DVD. Or could it be a disc RELATED TO THE OPERATION OF THE PLANE? Great moments in aviation: digitizing Jepps and getting rid of microfiche readers for the poor IA.

      Note that “there is no evidence in the tapes that mention a “laptop”, but there is a mention of a DVD.” The Pilot 2 says. “I just want to confirm that weÀ‚´re on the right course”. Clunky translation, “Eu sÀƒ³ quero ter certeza que estamos indo na direÀƒ§Àƒ£o certa”.

      ThatÀ‚´s the trouble with official translators not conversant with technical terminology.

    • bo

      [quote]But itÀ‚´s as if the controller just kept saying, “Housewares!”. No dialogue, just rote phrases. [/quote]

      Can’t say it surprises me. He may have been that K Mart employee that ICE caught up with.

    • Ric

      Now we come to a two page spread on C-8 and C-9, in which the story takes all the space except for one display ad on p. 9 and 19 obituaries and 5 Mass Notices on page 8, insensitive, but as a former composing room employee at a newspaper I know how hard space is to come by.

      The pilots are working on the flight management system and one of them says, “Everything is a mess (bagunÀƒ§a) and I think weÀ‚´d better clean this thing up and get it trimmed out.”

      A non-flying reporter would have no idea as to what he is talking about. Especially with the translation form English into Portuguese.

      Eighth paragraph, page 8, commenting on the fact that they are at an odd insead of even altitude, pilot 1 says “We tried to get an altitude before we took off and now this”. Pilot 2 says, “Ah. He (the controller) just kept saying, [voe partida Oren](fly procedure Oren) [a departure procedure].

      I know the above is a little hard to follow, I think what they are talking about is a SID (standard instrument departure) but I donÀ‚´t have a current IFR chart or plate for that area.

      But itÀ‚´s as if the controller just kept saying, “Housewares!”. No dialogue, just rote phrases.

      Paragraph 9, page C-8. “The 112 pages of conversation do not clear it up [why the TCAS wasnÀ‚´t working.] Up until the moment of the collision, there is no evidence that the piots had turned it off nor that they knew it was not working.”

    • bo

      [quote]Next, the controllers didnÀ‚´t know the planes were at the same level. Brasilia asks Manaus why the Gol isnÀ‚´t showing up, and Manaus says, “Whoa! What Gol 1907 are you talking about?”
      [/quote]

      LOL…”oh, they one not showing up on your screen!”

      Have to say, I’m not comfortable at all flying in brazil since knowing all this horseshit about regular blind spots and pilots out of communication with the tower.

    • Ric

      First page, headline, Tapes reveal Errors in Plane Crash. Paragraph 2, first error, tower in SJC clears them for takeoff, climb and maintain 37,000 feet, without citing the three altitudes in the original flight plan.

      Next paragraph, they had problems with the jet, the radio, the “aeronautical maps”, and the controllersÀ‚´English. This is detailed on the pages with the graphs but I donÀ‚´t see the actual tapes supporting these allegations.

      Next, the controllers didnÀ‚´t know the planes were at the same level. Brasilia asks Manaus why the Gol isnÀ‚´t showing up, and Manaus says, “Whoa! What Gol 1907 are you talking about?”

      First page of the Cotidiano section, rehash, rehash, then mentions the “displicÀƒªncia” of the controllers, or “indifference” in this context, and the discomfort of the pilots with the new plane and the local flying conditions.

      Down at the bottom of page C-1, this is key to me, “Even now, almost 5 months later, the lagest mystery continues: why the transponder was INOPERANTE (not working). And yet in another place in the same piece, it assumes the unit was turned off.

    • bo

      [quote]”Confused and Inexperienced” is a reporterÀ‚´s value judgement. If thatÀ‚´s typical, after all this time, of what the prosecutor has got, whÀƒ©reÀ‚´s the case?[/quote]

      Exactly!

    • bo

      [quote]written by Your concience, 2007-02-18 14:50:51

      As for the flights in Brazil are very much normal with exception of carnival traveling.[/quote]

      What??? Who’s the idiot here??? What world are you in son??? Normal? In Brazil?? Since the accident??? The airports have been an absolute fucking mess since that accident. Obviously you HAVEN’T been in brazil, when I haven’t been affected by it personally, I watched it on tv for [b]MONTHS[/b], delays, some people had delays for DAYS, people attacking people at the check-in counters, “sit ins” on the airport runways!!!

      Problems with communications, blind spots, unqualified air traffic controllers, overworked air traffic controllers, etc, have ALL been confirmed!!!

      The only “blind patriotism” going on here is ignorant-ass brazilians, like yourself and the ones that came out of the woodwork within hours of the accident, blaming the americans, and making ludicrous statements like, “if this would’ve happened in the U.S. he would’ve been labeled a terrorits”. That was unreal how that old brazilian military idiot came out within hours, before an investigation even BEGUN, and blamed the americans….amazing that is, not to mention very “professional”.

      Get over yourself! Look at the [b]FACTS[/b]. When you have blind spots on your fucking radar screen, places where communication is REGULARLY [b]LOST[/b], who’s fault is that Einstein?

    • Ric

      This Brazzil article is 13 mostly short paragraphs long. It was taken from a two dollar, 70 page Sunday newspaper that devoted 49 mainly long paragraphs and several graphs to summarize info taken from a reported 290 pages of transcripts. So you immediately go on line with no new info except the 13 paragraphs in English above and say it validates all you have been alleging. I have the newspaper in front of me. The full printed story may be gotten online for Folha subscribers, which I am not, but the online version may not have as much as the printed version. So stop salivating long enough for me to lay this out.
      I want to concentrate on todayÀ‚´s new developments, not read downloads of what someone else said in aother time and another context.

    • Norman Kemble

      As you seem to be playing DevilÀ¢€™s Advocate and acting as your username (I canÀ¢€™t remember who named you simpleton, but know it was during the late summer) IÀ¢€™ll try to keep this À¢€˜simpleÀ¢€™ and spell it out for youÀ¢€¦

      Everything that I have posted and said is interlocking and in aviation itˢ۪s known as an error chain (I posted this long ago so Iˢ۪ll make it short here). Error chains are like a chain where every link is a mistake, decision, etc. that contributes to the accident. If ONE link can be broken the accident will not happen. As you see in this accident that didnˢ۪t happen and the accident occurred.

      Professional pilots donÀ¢€™t sit there, nod off to sleep, watch DVD movies on their laptops. etc. Yes, people read, do paperwork, etc. BUT AT LEAST ONE person is always watching what is going on. À¢€œScanning the cockpitÀ¢€Â, À¢€œlooking outsideÀ¢€Â, À¢€œwatching the engine instruments, fuel burns etc.À¢€Â ItÀ¢€™s more than just good procedure À¢€“ it is À¢€œSituational AwarenessÀ¢€Â. Reading the preliminary NTSB report and the few things in this article on this web site just reiterates the posting on À¢€œLack of Situational AwarenessÀ¢€Â.

      IÀ¢€™m confused at how flying along FD and H for over an hour not in contact with ATC could be considered anything BUT Lack of Situational Awareness, outright non-professionalism and borderline negligence. As a professional pilot, I (and IÀ¢€™m sure all other real professional pilots everywhere) am outraged and insulted by that mentality. IÀ¢€™m also completely baffled about how reading the NTSB report and the few things posted here shows anything other than confusion, inexperience and, clearly, lack of situational awareness.

      Simpleton: The articles that disappeared are Joe Sharkeyˢ۪s every changing and evolving story of what happened, where he was when it happened, what he was doing and when he was doing it when the accident happened. Stop living down to your user name and wake up. Or just stick to something that you do know

      Ric: reread this paragraph:

      À¢€œÀ¢€™IÀ¢€™m confused at how flying along FD and H for over an hour not in contact with ATC could be considered anything BUT Lack of Situational Awareness, outright non-professionalism and borderline negligence. As a professional pilot, I (and IÀ¢€™m sure all other real professional pilots everywhere) am outraged and insulted by that mentality. IÀ¢€™m also completely baffled about how reading the NTSB report and the few things posted here shows anything other than confusion, inexperience and, clearly, lack of situational awareness.À¢€Â

      Also, nothing you have written or said shows me that you have thousands of hours, A&P, etc. What you have written just leads me to believe that you work for Embraer and know ExcelaireÀ¢€¦ and remain hopeful that some of ExcelaireÀ¢€™s dollars from their alleged multi-plane purchases will trickle down into your pocket. If you have anything meaningful to contribute, I suggest that you try memantine before you post. IÀ¢€™ve heard that it has been having good resultsÀ¢€¦.unless, of course, it is compounded by a pharmacist who has a total lack of situational awareness.

    • Simpleton

      I know where the transcripts were made. I don’t know where Fohla got them from. The NTSB just gave them directly to a news organization but not to the general public? The NTSB translated them into PT for Fohla?

      I’ve never known any “remote controlled pilots”. If nothing else, the vanity mirror tends to interfere with this.

      As to “users” of these equipments and airvehicles (i.e. pilots), I’ve always found them a bit head strong and naive / prone to mis-believing things that taint so when encountering a new system setup. Even those with many years military experience in addition to years of experience doing ferry flights and maintenance flights for the big commercial boys (and toss in a little bit of “green” aircraft check flight testing to boot) have not the indepth knowledge one might knight them with. Don’t take what they say so bitterly or as absolutes.

      Ditto for some equipment manufacturers engineering reps designated to support first time air vehicle validation / verification testing in a cockpit upgrade program where their equipment has never been certified before.

      These folks, pilots and engineers alike, are a far cry from being idiots but damb they can be hard headed and oft times surprise me with their lack of detailed knowledge about their own stuff.

    • Ric

      Just for starters, my translation,”….had problems understanding what the Brazilian air traffic controllers were saying, probably due to the language.”. “language” here has to refer to the way the Brazilians were speaking English, what else could it mean? The pilots speak English as their mother tongue and no one is speaking Portuguese.

      The piots complain that the controllers just keep saying the same thing, same simple answers, indicating no understanding. Like asking a hispanic employee at a Miami Walmart where to find something, and whatever it is she says “housewares”. Learn a few words and phrases and punch the time clock and then blame anyone else available when something goes wrong.

      “Confused and Inexperienced” is a reporterÀ‚´s value judgement. If thatÀ‚´s typical, after all this time, of what the prosecutor has got, whÀƒ©reÀ‚´s the case?

    • Ric

      Give me a few minutes, Real Gee Four, while I pull up the Folha article. And stop misquoting me. And stop denigrating people that have flown thousands of hours between the US and Brazil and are licensed in both as pilot and A&P. Consider the possibility that somebody besides yourself might know something.

    • Simpleton

      realgivp – you still have access to the postings in the old articles? I thought those mysteriously disappeared. If you would, please go through and search them for “monkey” and “macaco” or “maccaco”. Pretty sure it was in one of those threads where that garbage started out – think someone offered a reward for anyone finding / posting a link to anyone who could find the evidence – I’ll go down and collect it and give you half.

    • Give me patience!

      simpleton what do you mean
      where the folha got the story? Read the article with your head out of your ass this time! Hello hello??? The folha got the transcripts from NTSB.

      “The transcriptions were made at Washington’s NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board).”

      You made absolutely no sense in your long stupid article. You merely regurgitated old information twisted and interpreted À¢€¦your way.
      REALGIVP is absolutely right from the very start, but it is impossible to deal with a bunch of À¢€œremote controlled pilotsÀ¢€Â morons with hyper patriotic sensitivity and an acute sense of indifference to the world outside theirs.

    • Simpleton

      Not that it has any significant bearing on things in this case but as a sideline thing some people wouldn’t have a clue about (or may need reminding of including some or most “professional” pilots) – at a closure rate of say 800 miles per hour you might expect a perfectly good set of working aircraft systems to give you in round numbers 22.5 seconds warning to pull up or dive. My personal experience listening to a commercial flight deck crew attempting to make ground contact in the region in question was disturbing to say the least. 15, 20 minutes or more gaps in being able to raise a response from ATC through repeated calls (and more of the same on another occassion on the same passage) seemed to piss off the “professional” crew but didn’t cause them to do anything exceptional that I was able to be aware of. Certainly you could hear ATC talking to other aircraft as well as the other aircraft responding. Was something wrong? Apparently not, we didn’t collide with anyone and it was a regularly flown scheduled flight being flown roughly “on time” so why be such a worry wart and think maybe something’s wrong with your transmitter but not your receiver (they’re all in the same black box using the same antenna).

    • Norman Kemble

      Here is a previous post gotten from a military friend
      “An anonymous quote found in AETC’s Handbook 11-1, “Road to Wings,” summarizes judgment pretty well: “We should all bear one thing in mind when we talk about a troop who rode one in. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That he was mistaken in that judgment is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every supervisor and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all of us goes in with every troop we lose.”
      When you think about it, that’s a pretty sobering comment to an audience whose jobs are inherently dangerous and require mass quantities of instantaneous judgment. But “human factors” have accounted for an average of about 69% of aircraft-related mishaps across the past ten years, with approximately 54% of the human factors aircraft-related mishaps involving errors in judgment. With this one item (judgment) identified as one of the most frequent causes of aviation mishaps, can we regulate it to decrease the number of incidents?
      Webster’s defines judgment as “The ability to make a decision or form an opinion by discerning and evaluating … The capacity to make sound and reasonable decisions: good sense.” I especially like the part about “good sense” because it seems to be lacking in people at times. But what this definition doesn’t explain is how one goes about acquiring good sense or judgment. This is because judgment isn’t something that can be taught through a definition, textbook or even a cookbook!
      Judgment is a cognitive skill, learned during the on-going process of education and experiences throughout one’s life. The Air Force mentors us by providing technical training courses to advance our knowledge and establishing upgrade programs to advance our skills. This, combined with experience developed over time, is designed to improve your judgment ability.
      However, experience alone is not the sole qualifier for judgment. Everyone has seen an example of a highly experienced person making a poor judgment call. Numerous mishap reports and “There I Was” stories talk about pilots with “thousands of hours” or “doing it a hundred times before,” making a bad decision. Or, on the other hand, a young second lieutenant making an input to the crew during a critical situation and saving the aircraft.
      So this brings us back to the original question: Can judgment be regulated? The Air Force makes a valiant attempt to regulate judgment through written restrictions, operating instructions, and technical manuals, but does this really regulate judgement? Can it?
      Taking a consensus of experienced pilots, it can be said that judgment Can’t be regulated. So why do we have all those written restrictions and operating instructions? The best way to look at it is to view regulatory guidance as parameters, established to limit our choices that directly influence our judgment. In other words, until you acquire that breadth of experience over time that is helpful in developing judgment, the regulations and instructions are there to aid you and give you guidance. Even after you have developed a wealth of experience, the regulatory guidance is still there when you need it.
      It’s like a flow diagram kept in your head that you review each time a decision is made. By knowing what is legal, what the capabilities of your aircraft are, and what your personal limits are, you can more effectively make a good judgment decision when presented with a situation. Over time, the decision process becomes more intuitive as your experience builds, until one day you graduate from the “school of hard knocks” and are awarded a degree in “judgment.”
      After you acquire what you think is judgment, keep this quote by Mark Twain in your hip pocket for those times when you’re just not sure which way to go: “It is better to be careful a hundred times than to be killed once.” In other words, taking the safer course of action most likely will keep you out of trouble during those times when things just aren’t going your way. So continue to build your judgment, work on your knowledge and fly safe!
      COPYRIGHT 2001 U.S. Air Force, Safety Agency
      COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group”

    • Norman Kemble

      reposting from earlier
      jon, here is a reposting of part of my comments from an earlier article.

      I agree with you and Simpleton that getting the whole transcript would answer multiple questions.

      “Internationally (especially with the implementation of RVSM) it is next to impossible to fly at the wrong altitude for the wrong direction. Almost all countries will not allow this except for weather or fuel and even then it is fairly rare. In Canada the only time IÀ¢€™ve gotten a À¢€œwrongÀ¢€Â altitude for the direction is at FL450 (45000 feet) going westbound coming back from Europe and that was only because of weather. The fact is there are no airplanes up there, especially going eastbound to Europe, but those are the rules and they adhere to them; especially in countries where English is not the first language. The flying I did in Brazil (and granted the last time was 8 years ago before RVSM) you were still expected to fly the right altitude for the right direction. It was, and still is, the pilotÀ¢€™s responsibility to clarify when to comply with a change in altitude. I feel that Lepore and PaladinoÀ¢€™s asking a general À¢€œshould we stay at FL370À¢€Â before BRS gave the wrong impression to ATC, as well as to the pilots themselves. ATC said to À¢€œmaintainÀ¢€Â and probably the thinking was that they were going to have them stay at the right altitude and then be changed to the correct altitude for direction after BRS. The pilots erroneously assumed that that meant for the route after BRS flying at the wrong altitude for the direction of flight. You must at all times be exactly sure of what is going on, what to expect and what ATC expects. Asking non-specific questions or not clarifying routes, altitudes etc. when different then the rules is complacency at best. It is not only unprofessional; it is downright dangerous and reckless.

      One last thought on communication: When you have not been in contact with ATC for over an hour and have made numerous calls, you have to assume that you have lost communication and start to follow the lost communication procedures. Also, it is disingenuous to say that because you heard ATC that the radio was working perfectly. Maybe your receiver was working, but not your transmitter. Maybe both had failed. Maybe your receiver failed but not your transmitter. Just because you heard them doesnÀ¢€™t mean that you are communicating with ATC.”

    • Simpleton

      Opa – forgot to add that you would need to know the area where the comm problem was becoming evident to the crew. There might have been no secondary surveillence coverage in that area. (There are much larger areas of “blind spots” for that than for the primary radars which only tell you position – not altitude). That in turn might lessen the possibility / probablity that setting in the comm loss code could have made a difference. If the transponder was working at least intermittently, the ATC would (hopefully) have gotten a que of the distress situation developing and made quick strides to divert the course of the Boeing aircraft by telling them to fly an offset.

    • Simpleton

      jon, good point although setting in the code for comm loss in place of the one assigned for the flight might not have caused things to be put back into proper operating order nor made it clear to the crew that something was amiss. Similarly, if the reply light that might have been obscured from view wasn’t blinking, the crew may or may not have noticed nearby traffic passing that should have made it do and made the mental connection that something was wrong.

      This author was quoting Fohla. Not sure whether Fohla was quoting someone who had access to the transcript or whether they got a copy of the transcript directly or that even perhaps it is now publicly available. I’d like to see this too as well as have about 20 minutes on the tarmac with a Legacy and a TCAS ramp checker so I can go through the entire system design to show what might be done to make it better. No doubt it complies with FAA requirements (or else Legacys would be banned from US airspace) but that doesn’t prove it is the best it can be.

    • jon

      there is some concern that less than total professionalism was used during this flight.

      I would like to see the entire transcript…IF there were 3 attempts at getting information to determine the assigned altitude without success, and a subsequent loss of communication…one might wonder why the trandsponder was not checked and perhaps the loss of communication code selected? this would have at least had the transponder checked and perhaps avoided the collision.

    • Simpleton

      That seems uncalled for. The article does present only a few snippets of info and is strung together in a way obviously intended to invoke judgemental responses from those without much knowledge of what goes on behind the dashboard and radar screens.

      Let’s try these:

      “”What the hell was that?” A little later one of them says, “We hit another plane. I don’t know where this shit came from.” ” Obviously the sounds and mechanical reactions upon contact which they most likely felt to their core was unlike anything they’d ever encountered in midair. The controllability of the aircraft thereafter certainly told them that something very very bad had happened. Seeing the damage after landing left no doubt that they had hit something up there at 37,000 feet. What was it? A cow? A farm impliment? What we’re they supposed to think or say – sh_t, fu_k, we’re sc_ewed.

      “had a laptop open in the cockpit in a way that its cover hid the panel where the transponder was located” The laptop might have obscured the control panel for the transponder that typically has a blinking light when the receiver-transmitter is being pinged by another aircraft. Once the control head (typically located down in the console or center pedestal area) is set up and checked (which it was earlier in the flight) it basically never get’s touched or looked at again unless the ATC calls them up to have them help check thier own systems by having them press the IDENT button. There are other more prominently located indications in the dashboard that automatically tell the status of the TCAS and provide the cautions / warnings and directions to climb or dive when a potential collision is eminent. Those are also accompanied by loud speaker and headphone tones or voice commands that the crew can’t miss. The TCAS in the Legacy may or may not be integrated well enough with the receiver-transmitter to warn the crew if the unit is failed, unpowered or turned off (although it most certainly should and can be).

      “flight controllers in Brazilian capital BrasÀƒ­lia were sure that the Legacy was at 36,000 feet and not 37,000, which was the real altitude.” Without the automated secondary surveillence data system working and without direct controller-pilot conversations directing and confirming the actual altitude, there is no way in hell the controllers could be sure that the Legacy was at 36,000 feet.

      “the FMS (Flight Management System) one of the pilots comment: “I’m still working on how to deal with this thing.” A little later he says that he needs to “read the manual” and complains: “Everything is a mess because (…) we need, I think, to clean and set up this plane.” ” FMSs from various manufacturers are somewhat the same an somwhat different. Most pilot’s adapt fairly quickly even without the manual and complain when it does work like the one they most used / grew up with. Who programmed in the flight plan for this trip – the pilot’s or an Embraer employee? Does this FMS and the cockpit display system have the most recent technological advancement of a vertical profile capability? Did all the pre-saved flight plans, radio frequency guidance info (if it has such capability), etc., left over from the Embraer flight testing and company sell-off flight(s) get cleared out? If the thing was still set up with a bunch of garbage was it bad service from the manufacturer or poor planning on the part of the purchaser not to clean things up before this ferry flight?

      “I need to learn this international shit.” Absolutely. You know how to read the charts to see what’s normally required where and it may be different than what you’re used to. The rules where you are (over water or in someones elses airspace) are the rules. The failure here was not studying things in sufficient depth to know to question the SÀƒ£o JosÀƒ© dos Campos’s controller to confirm what was the next controller contact point expected / first change in the initial flight profile after reaching 37,000 as directed. The controller there sees things as normale and routine. This set of pathways is used by many many aircraft. The turn from one airway to the other is published in the charts as are the contact frequencies for the next ATC zone over. The flight level rules based on direction for each airway can also be found. Even in the US, ensuring a full complete and proper hand off from one ATC zone to the next is / was challenging. In this case, that did not occur at all as neither CINDACTA made contact with the Legacy and directed the flight level change or had them confirm where they were actually at and thier intentions. In a way, these poor guys were somewhat like the ATC controllers. They were sure they were following the last order they heard.

      (Oh, and excuse my use of “dashboard” and any other atypical names for things – just want non-pilots / non-avionics engineers to be better able to relate to things.)

    • Norman Kemble

      Read my postings
      For all who have been following my postings on this terrible needless accident you can see by some of what is written here that everything I have said is been right on the money. Not only accurate but true. People will grasp at straws (language, etc.) but since they have no aviation experience let alone flown in Brazil they will hold on to that little hope that the pilots are to be totally absolved of any contribution to this accident.

      For those who want to try and understand the whyˢ۪s and howˢ۪s of this tragic accident go back and reread my postings. I have said all along besides the Brazilian ATC system, blind spots, etc. that Excelaire the lack of adequate training, the lack of international experience, the lack of international procedures training, the lack of knowledge of the airplane and the fact that this was the first time the two flew together.

      Now IÀ¢€™m not saying that there should never be a time when two pilots fly together who have never flew together before. The airlines do that all the time, as does the military, as do corporations as do legitimate charter operators. They follow Standard Operating Procedures (SOPÀ¢€™s) that set out specific procedures and operating parameters. They have more than adequate training in the specific airplane as well as International Procedures before they go out and fly the airplane in another country.

      Being a professional pilot means that you know all of this beforehand. It is your responsibility to do so. You donÀ¢€™t go out and À¢€œbarnstorm around the country or countriesÀ¢€Â (as ric would have us believe). When you do not act in a professional manner, tragic things happen. Does anyone on this board remember Tenerife? The Comair crash in Kentucky? The GIII crash in Aspen?? How about the regional jet accident listed on the NTSB web site of several years ago, where the pilots flamed out both engines, didnÀ¢€™t bother to tell ATC, over flew several suitable airports to make an emergency landing and then crashed and died??? Ring any bells?? IF not go onto the NTSB web site and read some of the accident reports.

      And some clown like ric says that all pilots should ban together as brothers. Professional pilots ban together with other PROFESSIONAL pilots. Not merely because they are other pilots.

      And before rick puts other words in my mouth, I am not asking for criminal charges against these Legacy pilots. IÀ¢€™m not at all opposed to criminal action being taken again Excelaire for their lack of personal accountability and responsibility in this matter. The FAA and NTSB will take care of anything that needs to be done with these two.

    • Grorge

      Left Winger
      I have only one thing to say about these leftist anti america articles. Who does every country call when the “shit hits the fan.” They call the USA. When countries need emergency loans to keep their government running, they call the USA. When countries need medical experts to identify an outbreak of some sickness, they call the USA. When violence overruns a third world country, they call the USA for assistance. I’m tired of these left anti-american articles. I understand that the writers must create controvecy so that people will read their lies. I’m not defending the USA, but I wish authors to these articles were held accountable for their lies. Tchauzinho, George P

    • Your concience

      Bo you are an idiot!!!
      So, Bo if the name of the journalist was Bill Shithead Jones would had made a world of difference in your little fucking mindÀ¢€¦???You ignorant fuck!!!
      It is obvious that they were talking about basic international regulations as it pertains to flight “direction and altitudes” when in the absence of communication.
      As for the flights in Brazil are very much normal with exception of carnival traveling. What has been a nightmare for you is to defend the indefensible just for the sake of your stupid patriotism. So the next time you roll your eyes think of this…my balls in your mother’s chin!!!

    • Simpleton

      “According to Folha, the transcripts don’t answer a key question: “Why the Legacy’s transponder, which should have prevented the collision, wasn’t working at the time of the accident?” “

      Yes, a key question. The transponder systems which interoperate between two or more aircraft as an automatic protection measure of last resort did not prevent this accident. These systems can also be picked up by the secondary surveillence systems on the ground to aid the airspace usage planning and tracking projections of the ATC which they then direct which aircraft is to go where / do what through two-say radio communications. The transponder sysstems which are now mandatory for nearly every aircraft are supposed to help make up for the other human and technological failures which do from time to time occur. Communications were not correctly working. The ATC planning system had the Legacy indicated as being at the altitude normal for this transit and not at the altitude it was at. When everything is fine, their actual altitude would have been confirmed by the secondary surveillence system in some (but not all) segments of its transit through the region as well as by the normal controller-pilot verbal confirmations.

      The planning and tracking system used by the controllers must be fixed. The failure or inoperability of one peice of equipment on one aircraft should never have lead to the false assumption that the aircraft was progressing along at an altitude that it had not been confirmed as having been specifically directed to go to / confirmed as actually having arrived at through the normal human-human communications.

      All necessary communications and instructions between pilots and ATC controllers the world over is done in English. The amount of information and patterns of interactions is fairly limited and almost always very predictable. Whether it is a Russian or Swiss pilot and a controller from India or Africa, all with heavy or unsual accents when speaking in thier own native language, it is not supposed to matter.

    • Alex

      English on International flights
      Hi JosÀƒ© Wilson Miranda, since you only read the Brazzil Magazine summary of the full Folha article you are unable to appreciate the full extension of what went on in that flight. By your biased comments it appears that you have already made up your mind, regardless of what the media will put forward…You should be aware, however, that the Legacy flight was NOT international. They departed from SÀƒ£o JosÀƒ© dos Campos and destination was Manaus, a totally domestic brazilian flight. So I don’t think your assertion of the language they should speak is entirely correct.

    • bo

      [quote] Written by JosÀƒ© Wilson Miranda [/quote]

      other than being unfamiliar with a BRAND NEW airplane that was just purchased in one country, and returning home to their own country, I don’t see ANY proof of incompetence whatsoever. The only thing this report proves is that the communications system in brazil is responsible for these pilots being at a different altitude than the flight tower wanted them at. Also shows that the flight controllers in brasilia are not speaking english at a level they should. It is the international STANDARD for all flight controllers as well as pilots speak english when flying internationally, and naturally a level of english that is required to communicate with the vocabulary necessary in regards to the technical jargon of aeoronautics.

      Kind of conincidental that after this crash travel in brazil has been a fucking nightmare. Wonder why that is?

      Please, be sure and post the transcripts from the boeing as well.

      Nice investigative job Jose! (rolleyes)

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

    comment *

    • name *

    • email *

    • website *

    This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

    Ads

    You May Also Like

    Brazil Ready to Pardon Debts As Long As Someone Else Pays

    Five Latin American countries seek to have their debts with the Interamerican Development Bank ...

    Lidiana Severo de Oliveira

    Pretty Woman, 30, Paid to Be Killed, Say Brazilian Police

    The police of Fortaleza, the capital city of the northeastern state of Ceará, in ...

    Real and dollar currencies

    After Mexico’s Success Brazil Considers Selling 100-year Bonds

    The Brazilian government is thinking about selling 100-year bonds after Mexico succeeded in offering ...

    Minimum Mandatory Schooling in Brazil Rises to 9 Years

    Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva will sign into law a bill raising ...

    How Free is Brazil’s Judiciary? The UN Wants to Know.

    The Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights on the Independence ...

    President Lula of Brazil

    Despite Loss of Sí£o Paulo, Brazil’s Ruling Coalition Makes 63% of Mayors

    A day after Sunday's municipal election, Brazilian President, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, called ...

    The naturism fad

    No Shame As Adam and Eve in Paradise, many Brazilians are opting for the ...

    Residence in Gramado, Brazil

    Half of Brazilians Are Middle Class, Finance Minister Announces

    The Brazilian economy should grow by approximately 4% in 2009, despite the global crisis ...

    Clio made by Renault in Brazil

    Boom Times for French Carmaker Renault in Brazil: 61% Growth Anticipated

    Renault Brazil, the Brazilian subsidiary of the French carmaker, increased its vehicle production in ...

    Brazil Needs Better Distribution of Assets, Says Unesco

    At the 1st Ibero-American Congress for Sustainable Development, today, in Rio de Janeiro, the ...