Gathered in Brazil 5 Presidents Tell the US: “We Told You So”

    South American presidents

    South American presidents Not all the action was in Switzerland. While bankers and politicians were meeting last week in Davos for the World Economic Forum a rival summit in the northern Brazilian city of Belém challenged them and blamed the capitalist system for the current global crisis.

    Tens of thousands of socialists, anarchists, environmentalists, Amazon tribes and five South American presidents under the banner of "another world is possible" promoted Latin America as a model for global economic development and cooperation.

    Basically the blame for the global economic crisis was on the United States and the bankrupt "neo-liberal" capitalist system and the message from the forum "we told you so."

    US economic mismanagement is causing chaos across the world and "21st century socialism" is the only way forward, Venezuela's socialist President Hugo Chavez said, leading the charge at the international meeting in Belém.

    "Misery, poverty and unemployment are on the rise, and it's mostly the fault of global capitalism," Chavez said as cheering supporters waved red flags at the World Social Forum in the Amazon. "We are facing a crisis in the global capitalist system and the irresponsible economic policies of the government of the United States" he added.

    Chavez was joined at the forum by some of his closest allies: Presidents Rafael Correa of Ecuador, Fernando Lugo of Paraguay and Evo Morales of Bolivia, plus the leader of the country hosting the meeting, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva.

    About 100,000 activists are attending the forum, campaigning for everything from anarchism to rain-forest preservation to a return to Soviet-style communism. The forum has attracted a record of number of presidents this year as the financial crisis has sent economies into recession and forced rich countries to bail out their banking systems.

    Correa and Lugo fired up the crowd in a university gym by serenading them with songs including "Comandante Che Guevara," a tribute to the late Latin American revolutionary.

    They later joined Brazil's Lula at another gathering of thousands of activists, including hundreds of indigenous Amazon Indians in traditional headdresses and body paint.

    Lula, whose policies have balanced social programs with free-market orthodoxy, brought a dozen cabinet ministers to the forum and spurned the Davos summit of business leaders in Switzerland that he had attended previously.

    "I believe the crisis is much more severe. We don't know how deep it will go," he said, adding that his government would invest in industry to create jobs rather than give public money to banks as rich countries have done.

    He said the US and other rich countries should get the same tough treatment that Latin American countries received during their financial crises in recent decades. "Now, I expect the IMF to go to US president Obama and tell him how to fix the economy," said Lula da Silva.

    The Brazilian president, a former factory worker who has blamed the crisis on the United States and "casino" capitalism, got the biggest cheer of all the leaders but avoided socialist rhetoric.

    Ecuador's Correa said the crisis showed that the "neo-liberal" model had failed, and said the social forum was now more relevant than the Davos World Economic Forum.

    "They are the ones responsible for the crisis. They are not the ones to give us lessons," he said.

    Bolivia’s Evo Morales, the country's first indigenous president, said social movements must ensure privileged elites no longer accumulate capital without considering the human cost.

    Mercopress

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    • Show Comments (49)

    • Ric

      Social Forum: One last comment
      Because the locals in Belem are talking behind closed doors about the folly of a World Cup in Belem after the Forum experience.

      While in Belem I talked with two people who worked at UFRA during the conference. One is a married women who worked as a volunteer in the area where attendees signed up and got their credentials. She said that the feds sent 160 million reais two years ago to get things ready including making the two lane Perimetral Road into four lanes. Didn’t get done. “One day I spent two hours on a city bus, on a two kilometer trip to the campus.” She said there were some good speeches, on the environment, but not well marked and announced. The people in her section were trained for three days. The computers brought in had european keyboards. People who were sent by companies or schools could not find their names. The crew went to paper, pens and notebooks, instead of the computers. The registration materials were brought in at the same moment that people started to arrive to register, stacks and stacks of materials all around the room, people were coming in, taking “crachas”, name tags, and selling them for 15 reais on the outside. The regular price was 30 reais for locals, 150 Euros for foreigners. People coming in be road or at the airport were left to fend for themselves. She said there were 20,000 people camped
      out at UFRA, police were not allowed, only firemen, no vehicles, lots of pot, sex, mud. Welcome center often understaffed with two or three workers of an eveing, dozens milling around, 16 non-functioning european computers sitting around doing zero.

      Then I talked to a fireman who worked at UFRA. He verified her story. People were taking more than name tags, whole silibi. Local perps painted themselves up like Indians and got inside, feigning non-Portuguese knowledge, in order to pick pockets and go thru backpacks, tents, busses. Lots of volunteers quit.

      And now I quit. I hereby put this now old story to rest. -30-.

    • asp

      i think you are right, joao
      the guy downstairs is a gaucho , its just that it is his apartment the worker has to enter so he is the one who overules my choice . the condo will pay for it..

      i could get riled about it with him, but, i dont like to conflict with my neighbors..

      i prefer to use brazilian workers

    • João da Silva

      [quote]this uraguaian has been jerking me off for 2 weeks now not showing up….bad desician by the guy down stairs….i sure cant stereotype brazilian workers with this kind of experiance…[/quote]

      What did you expect out of him? Didn’t you know that lots of Uruguayans,Chileans, Argentine [i]unskilled as well as semi skilled[/i] labor are here because of the “better opportunities” and at the same time pissing on the Brasilian workers? I don’t know where your downstairs neighbor comes from, but I bet he is from the south of our “Border” who thinks that all the “Islanders” are a bunch of “babacÀƒµes”. If you really stop to think, we don’t need outsiders telling us what to do.

      So, my friend, if that Uruguayan does not know how to fix the problem, better call the Brasilian worker. Probably he would charge you half the price if he is an “Islander”.

    • asp

      im getting jerked around by an uraguain repair man right now….
      i would never call this guy, i usualy call brazilian repair men (one of the great guys i called fixed a dryer that has worked like a charm for years now…). this uraguain was hired by the brazilian below me who doesnt like the brazilian guy i called to help us fix a stupid problem.

      this uraguaian has been jerking me off for 2 weeks now not showing up….bad desician by the guy down stairs….i sure cant stereotype brazilian workers with this kind of experiance…

      if enough bad stuff happened anywhere,id want to leave too. i lived in new york 8 years and in the end , i hated it….the people, the atitudes, the violence ( it was violent then) the cost (there is another advantage in brazil…the cost). now i love new york again…after some time and distance

      forrest, i just think these things lurk everywhere in the world.ive sighned sontracts in the states , paid lawyers to help me with the contract, and ,the contracts totaly ignored and broken…any more lawyer paying and i would have gone broke fast…yeah, you got legal recource it the usa…recource to pay a lawyer until you are broke

      even the violence is relative…my brother just got violently mugged in santa fe new mexico…imagin being afraid of violence in brazil and staying in a place like santa fe for a more peacful life and then getting violently mugged

    • asp

      bo
      for sure, each persons experiance will shape their impresion of the place they have the experiance.and, your business or investments may involve much more beaurocarcy than i have to deal with. i just find that , northeast or south , each situation is differant for me.

      in recife , i had very good experiances dealing with people in my business . for , sure, some rip offs also.but, my business is very improvisational and under the radar of beauracracy a lot of the time (but not all the time for sure) , and, inatley full of risk and vulnerable to rip offs any where i practice it in the world.

      and, brazilians have to be improvisational to deal with the bullshit, so, sometimes we are all walking in an improvisational step together. if i was fixed on things having to be above ground and official, i think i would be messed up about it. ive had to lower my expectations in certain areas , but, the rewards in other areas are immense.for me, the culture , music , dance, food, beach life , keep trumping the business disapointments

      i understand the delemas you are talking about, and,i can go down my list of various investments and business dealings and find things that were bad and things that were good.

      one of my bigger investments was my apartment, which cost $40,000, which is un heard of most other places in the world. what could you get in the states for that ? of course it was built like shit, but, what can i expect for the price im paying ? so , somethings go right and some things go wrong.

      and, understanding what you have said about the feeling that foreiners are vulnerable to being taken advantage of, i dont find that it is a day to day experiance, of people trying to take advantage of me. it definitly comes up, but, its too one sided to portray that as the rule.( i mean people hike prices up in my neihborhood for summer, they are way too high anyway, but, they just dont do it to foreiners, every one has to pay those prices….its just oportunistic abusive merchants that do it)

      but ,lets agree that each persons experiances are going to be differant.so , you are going to have differant points of veiw

    • Forrest Allen Brown

      how about the hidden contract
      any one ever had that pulled on them ?? it almost happend to me on a cattle deal
      but my father inlaw got them ,
      it worked like this i bought the cows shipped them to my land had a vet check them .
      when all was done out came the transfer papers so with pen in hand i started to do the deal
      when macros stoped me and said not right we looked better at the papers .
      the way it was written i was leaseing the cows , and at sale i would pay on demand the owner
      the brasilian the full price for the cows , so we stoped the deal well he went off on marcos
      calling him every name he could think of , not knowing he was my wifes dad ,
      marcos just stood there and took !!!!!!!! i ask him why he told me that the man was of higher class
      and if he did something he would go to jail .!!.

      so i invited him off my land with his cows we ran the hurd off into the road along with him .
      so he called the police to have me put in jail for fasley saying i would by his cows .

      well what a pain

    • bo

      ASP…
      You won’t get an argument out of me concerning the existance of unscrupulous people in the U.S. But, when one talks about new york, it truly is a different beast than the rest of the country. NY and Miami are by far not “typical” american cities.

      The point I’m making is you simply don’t hear foreigners that go to the U.S., England, Canada, etc., saying in mass, “we got ripped off and taken advantage of because we are foreigners.” Unfortunately, here in Brazil, and especially the northeast, it is all too common. Matter of fact I would place a hefty wager that the majority of foreigners here in the northeast when they come to invest get ripped off in one form or another.

      I’ve been living here for 9 years by the way and started travelling to brazil in 1996. Although TODAY I speak fluent portuguese and am very familiar with the way business is done here, I STILL have to send a very good brazilian friend of mine in first of any serious negotiation simply because the knowledge of the other party knowing that a “gringo” is involved simply fucks everything up!

      Now that last statement I made simply can’t be made with any accuracy or generalization in the aforementioned countries above.

    • João da Silva

      asp
      [quote]a lot of the people who want to rip me off would rip off other brazilians also [/quote]

      A quote of the week. You do speak for the Middle Class Brasilians. Unfortunately, the “Rip off” philosophy is becoming more and more common, encouraged fully by our “Rulers”. Nothing wrong with our [i]good[/i] workers,but they get carried away by the leftist propaganda. I can not stand the crocodile tears shed by our “labor court” judges who are very well paid, but pay their “Empregadas” half the salary stipulated by the law. Then they give big lectures to the businesspersons as how they are so cruel to their employees! It is disgusting and many Brazilians would agree with your point of view.

    • asp

      bo
      how long have you lived in brazil ?ive lived here 22 years.i came here from new york city when it was wild and whooly and every one was trying to hustle your shirt off. the way new york was back then, there was nothing that surprised me about brazil…about human charactor….

      have i been hustled , ripped off,jived , nickel and dimed? sure, but, the same time i got ripped off on a few deals here in brazil, i was getting ripped off in my business from a couple of ass holes in the states….

      ive done business and lived in the north east and have had great experiances just day to day dealing with people, and bad

      once you are into day to day, its just human behavior from individual to individual. in my business ,in brazil,ive had some incredible people do work for me , then , a lot of mediocre chumps

      with my apartment, horribly made , meant for a favela , like it was a doll house, ive had a lot of mediocre workers fix things, and, a couple of nothing short of awesome workers .and, every time i was disapointed with workers here, my mother would be complaining of the same thing in the states… incompatence in work these days is universal

      ive had my share of taxi ripoffs and then a bunch who were totaly honest.

      if i know people are looking to rip me off when they see me coming because im a gringo, for sure my radar is up against them…

      a lot of the people who want to rip me off would rip off other brazilians also

      there sure are a lot of people i have no problem with what so ever and there are some anti american assholes who have screamed out of buses to get out of their land…for me , anti americans are just skimmed over dog shit i just walk over…..

    • Forrest Allen Brown

      BACK IN THE 70 WE TOOK A BARG BOAT THROUGH FRANCE
      It was very nice we only were in paris for one night , not the film

      the country side of france is a wonderful place in mid to late spring , and on a canal barge you move slow and look
      off the deck of the barge while eating fresh cooked food , breads , cheese and stop at night in some small town
      just to walk around a bit ,
      like most large cities any where you get the brain dropings , of there socity

    • João da Silva

      Augustus
      [quote]One thing I will never forget, in Genf, are the “PLASTIC” FACES with a fake smile “bonjour monsieur, bonjour madame” – TO EVERY ONE with that fake smile…. When you could FEEL their contempt burning inside…. AN UNFORGETABLE EXPERIENCE![/quote]

      It must have been easy for you to discern that they were Liars , Cheaters and Hiders.

      Of course, we must agree that there are [i]one or two[/i] rare exceptions in Geneve such as our friend Ch.C. 😉 😀 😉

    • Augustus

      JOAO – INDEED – More on GENF
      One thing I will never forget, in Genf, are the “PLASTIC” FACES with a fake smile “bonjour monsieur, bonjour madame” – TO EVERY ONE with that fake smile…. When you could FEEL their contempt burning inside…. AN UNFORGETABLE EXPERIENCE!

    • João da Silva

      [quote]Actually today I regret having selected GENF instaead of ZURICH as my destination for I am conviniced that DIE DEUTSCHE SEITE of Switzerland is FAR MORE AGREEABLE…[/quote]

      Many people have commented on the unfriendly [i]French[/i] Swiss in Geneve and so my friendÀ‚´s attitude in this blog shouldn’t come as a big surprise to you. I suggest that the next time you visit Switzerland, you skip Geneve and spend some quality time in Zurich practising your Deutsche.

      As far as I am concered, I prefer Lake Geneve in Wisconsin. 😀 😉 😉

    • Augustus

      JOAO – a side remark
      Although I fell in love with the city of PARIS, the best part of France lies around STRASSBURG (wonder why?)
      As for Switzerland, not only I disliked your good friend’s home town – I remember clearly as if yesterday – re-booking my flight from GENF zurueck nach Frankfurt (I had take a few days off while living in FFT and could not wait to fly back north. Actually today I regret having selected GENF instaead of ZURICH as my destination for I am conviniced that DIE DEUTSCHE SEITE of Switzerland is FAR MORE AGREEABLE…. 😉 😀 😉

    • João da Silva

      Augustus
      [quote]JOAO – IN AGREEMENT ABOUT THE FRENCH – THE OPPOSITE ABOUT DEUTSCHLAND[/quote]

      Yeah, I knew you would respond and defend the Deutsch culture! As I said earlier I do appreciate and admire various qualities in them. My previous comment was with the sole objective of condemning the behavior of those 3 old clowns at Salvador airport as well as point out the condescending attitude [i]some [/i] visiting Germans have towards [i]our[/i] German Brazilians. Yes, in some of the small cities in our state, you could enjoy the German culture and hospitality for a fraction of the price you would pay if you were to visit Germany. Of course we have some many many fine Italian Brazilians too. With all these fine folks around you, one does not have to vacation in Europe!

    • João da Silva

      Forrest
      [quote]JOAO as i said before i love brasil its just 40 % of the people i dont like[/quote]

      I know that Forrest otherwise you wouldn’t have married a Brazilian! As for my previous “request” for clarifications about your remarks on South, I was just pulling your leg. In a way, you are right. Many from the Northeast (as well as S.Paulo) are moving South, especially occupying important Federal jobs. Not many people are aware one of our Senators is from SP and recently LulaÀ‚´s daughter was nominated for an important post in one of the cities in our state. Ch.c would be very happy to know that she was educated in Lausanne. 😉

    • Augustus

      JOAO – IN AGREEMENT ABOUT THE FRENCH – THE OPPOSITE ABOUT DEUTSCHLAND
      JOAO
      Whereas I share you despise and deslike towards the French people (although I adore their culture, history and invaluable contribution towards Western Civilization), I strongly disagree with your views on Germany and Germans for several reasons and with one sole exception. Naturally I condemn and dislike every horrible deed & thought committed/expressed between 1933 and 1945. With this sole exception, I greatly admire DEUTSCHE KULTUR and particularly DEUTSCHE ORDUNG!!! In fact, I thank the German culture for its contribution for the significant advance of Southern Brazil (SUD-BRASILIEN) vis-a-vis the rest of the country, particularly your beloeved state, which I regret having never visited (I heard reports that some portions ressemble BAYERN (Bavaria).
      I lived in Frankfurt for 6 months in the 1990’s and it was a magnificent experience, although I am not particularly fond of that particular city and BY FAR PREFER the maginificent metropolis of BERLIN (noch einmal die Deutsche Haptstadt) and Hamburg (obwohl ich kennt es nicht sehr gut) LOL
      Needless to say, AFTER the United Kingdom, the United States and Brazil, DEUTSCHLAND has a very special place in my heart (ein besonderes platzt in mein Hertz)…. 🙂 🙂 🙂 LOL
      Es tut mir aber leid (LOL) = I’m sorry

    • Forrest Allen Brown

      BO
      and it is only getting worse .
      now that brasil is falling to the world crash , and that is what it is i dont care what you call it .
      the crooks are coming out of the sand on the beaches , the woods looking to gain a fast buck off
      any gringo they can , and any way they can .

      and i fortalasa , natal , and even in sao louis things have gotton out of hand .
      on the BBC the other day a english man gave his storie as he was having a massage when 4 police civil
      came into the building , and took all the gringoes but left he brasilians , the gringoes were never charged
      but were fined for luid acts on a minor .
      but yet there were no minors in the building , the women had there clothes on , and 2 of the gringoes were at the loung
      drinking .
      there money was taken along with there pasports and were told to bring back $5.000 reals each or go to jail and stay there till
      there cases could be hurd .
      all went to the police fedrail and filed a complaint on the civil police .
      the next day they went back to the PF where they were taken to the air port and told to leave
      so they lost there money personal gold , they did get there pasports back

      on a side line the other day my father inlaw was told by ibama i did not pay them tax on my land when i sold it ???
      i guess they will have to get it from the new owners as i have on money in brasil or land , lets see them get money out of a brasilian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      JOAO as i said before i love brasil its just 40 % of the people i dont like

    • bo

      [quote]basicly i have a lot of affinity with the people of brazil. culturaly , music , dance , beach life and food are extremly aluring and powerful for me.i would hardly judge a country and its people by the political corruption plaguing it. [/quote]

      ASP, any gringos that have spent time in Brazil are all well aware that it’s anything but all sunshine, big bundas, and caipirinhas. Governmental corruption is just a “part” of what many gringos have difficulty with in Brazil. Matter of fact, for those of us that spend significant time here I would say it’s way down on the priority list of complaints or dislikes. In the vast majority of Brazil ASP, unfortunately, when it comes to foreigners, there are literally people lying in wait to screw them, take advantage of them at every corner. Everyone from taxi cab drivers to real estate agents. Now, I’m speaking generally, so naturally that’s not a blanket statement. But here in my city there exists a condominium where 70 houses were constructed. 33 sold to foreigners. Every single foreigner that purchased was sold a house for anywhere from 100% to 150% more than what the brazilian purchase price was…..and the kicker? Although many paid “a vista” for these homes 5-6 years ago, ONLY the handful that agreed to be extorted for an additional 10K reais have their deeds today!!! There are literally at least a dozen that have lawsuits and entered the courts up to 2 years ago and until now NADA!!! Whoooopeee, we have to go to court in Brazil!!! What’s your life expectancy???!!! 😀

      Are you familiar with the gringo explosion that has occurred in Fortaleza especially over the last 5-7 years?? Well, huge numbers of europeans, large numbers of norwegians. Well, at least the norwegians are currently looking for other places in the northeast to spend their time and money because so many of them have been scammed. I’m very familiar with what’s been going on up there and to say that I’ve never seen anything like it in my life is accurate…..truly shameful.

      It’s not gov’t. corruption ASP, it’s the natives that believe that all gringo’s are all retarded millionaires and lay in wait and sit and devise entire strategies to screw ’em! And these just aren’t rare cases and instances. I literally know hundreds of gringos that either still spend time in brazil or used to and 95% of them have the exact same stories that I do. And it doesn’t matter if they’re american, canadian, english, french, german, or vietnamese!

      Look what happened to Forrest. Let me tell you, his story is NOT unusual! It is NOT uncommon. The details may change, but the premise is exactly the same.

    • asp

      joao , i guess he means anything south of porto seguro
      i dont know, everyone on here has there own outlook on people of the world…

      basicly i have a lot of affinity with the people of brazil. culturaly , music , dance , beach life and food are extremly aluring and powerful for me.i would hardly judge a country and its people by the political corruption plaguing it. im equaly shocked by what just happened economicly in the states , as anything ive seen down here.

      it would be extremly funny if i stayed in the states these last 22 years thinking it would be more practicle and stable financialy, missing all the incredible experiances ive had that i never would have had in the states , and, then facing the kind of unstability that is going on there now.i am facing it down here, but at least plopped down on a georgous beach surrounded by goddesses , waiting for carnival to start to admire the passistas in their fantacias doing their awesome steps that is one of the hardest exciting sensual dances in the world…….ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

      besides that , i would rather deal with anti americanism than racial division , that is so prevalant in the states

      but, to each his own…

    • Forrest Allen Brown

      JOAO
      where else does a drug dealer have a phone in his cell and call for a strike on public busses or have them burned with the people in them if he does not get his way ?????????????
      where else does a judge let go a known killer because hw was nice in jail .
      name me a place where you have 9 year old hookers in the buss station and it is passed of as a lie.
      and all the little crooks from the north have moved south to make more money with all sorts of graff and crooked deals , I BELEIVE YOU CALL THEM POLITICANS

      and the big one ibama sells off national land the formor government officals to have pravite islands beaches , montians ,

      if one looks hard enough at chaves you will see castros hand up his ass like a pupet that he is .
      and if one looks at lula you can see chaves hand up his ass like a pupet , and it even goes to morlas with lula all feeding off the others stupid ideas and going one step farther than the other .

      and as far as some one letting her in the country of basil i would look very close at that but you do have a new itilan /brasilian that is a convicted terroist
      way to go brasil and your judges
      got my jest on souther brasil yet joao

      there are good parts of brasil its just the people that makes not so good

    • João da Silva

      asp
      [quote]and , im talking about sensuality not sexuality. [/quote]

      You got the crux of my message. 😀

      [quote]i think ill just sit back and let augustus handle hugo..[/quote]

      Amen. Augustus is the right person to handle Hugh, while we are relaxing. 😉

      BUT…..BUT….. why was Forrest bitching about the South by making the following statement?:

      [quote]and for the south of brasil it to me has by far the worst of the worst of brasil [/quote]

      He better come out with some clear explanations. 🙁

      Cheers

    • asp

      for sure…
      yeah, it is perplexing and bizarre to see those reports….down here, everyonce in a while, a bunch of agentinians get the idea to run naked through canasveiras…

      i have to say, most americans i know (and im only speaking of americans based on i dont know many germans or french so i dont pretend to speak about them), while they may have certain ideas of what brazil is, they dont think its a place where people just run around and have sex with anyone they feel like. any american talking like that is usualy refering to the sex trade.they dont have the sensuality that brazil does and that certainly has a delirious affect. but, this aspect is so under reported in daily american life. the truth is, they dont know how deep and profound it really is until they actualy get down to a brazilian beach that has young people flocking to it. and , im talking about sensuality not sexuality.

      for sure there are deep fried dogs from the usa that would act like greased pigs in a shit hole if they got near to help disco , but, in a general sence , i dont think people have this general idea of brazil as a den of sex and fornification…

      maybe these people at the social forum really wish the whole world was so anarcial that they could fuck in the mud, and that is what they are really looking for in a social revolution…

      i think ill just sit back and let augustus handle hugo…

    • João da Silva

      Augustus
      [quote]JOAO – SUPLEMENTING MY ENTRIES FROM FEB 4 – REGARDING EUROPEAN / NORTH AMERICAN PERCEPTION OF BRAZILIANS… [/quote]

      [quote]Germans take clothes off in Brazilian airport[/quote]

      Augustus, I did go through the local press report on this incident including the pictures shown on the national TV. I think that you missed RicÀ‚´s comment that in BelÀƒ©m , the foreigners (Germans and Norwegians) were having sex on the streets. Probably they thought it was the norm in Brazil, like these 3 idiotic Germans did while they were in the airport in Salvador.

      These 3 old Germans had spent 2 weeks in Salvador and as you probably know that it is common on the Brazilian beaches to remove your outer wears to take the sun tan or get into the water. Then, when you are about to leave the beach, you put on the outer clothes. I have never seen anyone doing it at the airport lounges or at bus terminals or in any public places (At least not where we live or I have visited). Considering that the Rest rooms were 10 meters away to enable them to change the clothes, still those 3 old idiots preferred to do it right on the lounge and put the blame on the “Brazilian customs”. I wonder what would happen if I repeat their performance in Frankfurt airport saying that the Germans do it all the time in Salvador and I learned from them.

      In my personal opinion, the judges let them go with minor rebuke and I don’t think that those three idiots would ever come back to Salvador.I am not particularly a big fan of Germans from Germany. I rather prefer Brazilian Germans on whom the German Germans like to piss on. I have met some obnoxious assholes here without any culture nor education and when they tried to piss on others, I took the side and pissed on them right back . From then we got along great. That is the only language they understand. Not that I do not appreciate their culture and tradition. It is time for them to realize that they are not Aryan Gods anymore.

      BTW, I know many Brazilians who refuse to fly Lufthansa or Air France to avoid being treated like pieces of shit. I am one of them and it took me immense pleasure to tell Lufthansa as well as the German Consulate to go screw.

      There is nothing nationalistic about my comments, it is just that I want them to understand and respect the [i]good side[/i] of the Brazilian culture like I do about that of others.

    • Augustus

      SIMPLY DISGUSTING…
      I just cannot STOP myself from expressing outrage each time I read about this HEDONISC COMMUNIST AMAZONIAN CHARADE…
      To think that this FEMALE – daughter of Che Guevara was NOT ONLY allowed in the Country but permitted to interfere in international affairs, is UNBEARABLE… She should have been arrested (and in her case sent to the place where STRAY DOGS are sent) in the same way anyone would have been sent to prioson and torture in Havana if cought spreading the notion of free speech… it’s too deplorable for words… I cannot even read about it any longer!
      🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁

    • bo

      [quote]Social Forum II
      written by Ric, February 02, 2009
      Che Guevara’s daughter was here, Cuban pediatrician Aleida Guevara March. One of forty who took the boat over the weekend,to Maraj’o, Soure and Salvaterra. Encouraged more homeless to invade and occupy farms and ranches owned by others. Said that is was the Gringoes who own the land.

      Not on Marajo, Aleida. Better get your facts straight.

      Top complaint by attendees was the lackof info, directions, and event markers.

      Lots of vendors paid 20 reais for a space to sell food, they complained that they lost a lot of food due to deterioration, “foi horrivel para conseguir entrar aqui. Uma verdadeira falta de respeito comquen teve que pagar R$20 por esse espaco.”

      On the other hand, many attendees enjoyed taking off all their clothes on the last day of the event.

      Two visiting groups got together to protest the fact that 300 people had been rounded up and jailed prior to the event at the request of the event organizers. 200 of these were minors. They were rounded up to protect the conference attenders from armed robbers and pickpockets. They were jailed to protect you people, losers. Ingratos.

      On the other hand, like the food vendors who didn’t make much money, being incarcerated kept the 300 perps from making a dishonest living, they lost their chance to get ahead and pay some bills. The government should compensate them, right? [/quote]

      I can’t believe that this has been up since monday and I’m just now seeing it!!! I nearly pissed my pants!!! 😀 😉 😀 😉 😀 😉

      Remind me to NEVER go to Belem! 😀 😀

    • Augustus

      JOAO – SUPLEMENTING MY ENTRIES FROM FEB 4 – REGARDING EUROPEAN / NORTH AMERICAN PERCEPTION OF BRAZILIANS…
      Effective immediately, I shall Endeavour to list in whichever BRAZZIL.MAGG (which happens to be popular at the time) any and every evidence I find about the very negative perception of Europeans & North Americas regarding Brazilians “morality” due to AMPLE examples of disagreeable behavior of fellow Brazilians who also live abroad…
      ASSOCIATED PRESS
      [quote][b]Germans take clothes off in Brazilian airport[/b] By TALES AZZONI À¢€“ 1 day ago
      SAO PAULO (AP) À¢€” Two German tourists have been detained for taking their clothes off in the lobby of a Brazilian airport, authorities said Tuesday.
      The two men allegedly changed their clothes in front of other passengers at the Salvador international airport while awaiting a flight back to Germany on Monday, authorities said.

      Police formally accused the tourists of obscenity and said they could face up to one year in prison if convicted. They were released following a two-hour interrogation and were being allowed to leave the country, but signed a document promising to return to Brazil if requested by authorities.

      The men were not identified by authorities.

      Police inspector Maritta Souza said the 66-year-old man from Koenigsberg and his 64-year-old friend from Bad Bevensen said t[b]they thought it “was normal” to change clothes like that in Brazil, especially in a beach city like Salvador.[/b]

      They said that they were late for their flight and needed to change into new clothes because one of them got wet during a boat trip and the other felt sick and vomited during the same trip earlier in the day.
      [b]A Brazilian passenger called police when he saw the tourists taking their clothes off in front of other people.
      “I went there and asked if they would like to see other people taking their clothes off in front of his wife or in front of kids,” Paulo Goes told Globo TV. [i]”They just laughed[/i].”[/b] [/quote]

      AMAZING!

    • Augustus

      In Agreement with Faluma – regarding the Venezuelan “Biped” / the CORRUPT POPULIST – who answers by the name HUGO CHAVEZ
      While the last entry, criticizing the Venezuelan dictator represents a correct remark, it was FAR TOO MILD for me to resist, whenever possible, at whatever site, under whatever circumstance, to express my enormous despise, boundless hate and exceeding noxious feeling (NOJO) for the ugly Venezuelan À¢€œbipedÀ¢€Â who holds sway over his unfortunate nation…

      Even more distressing is the obvious fact that Hugo Chavez is playing Lula – the Northeastern Analphabet – like a toy and the Idiotic Brazilian À¢€œRulerÀ¢€Â does not even realize…
      Yet, as stupid and disgusting Lula may be, when compared to Hugo Chavez, he appears like a (stupid) Brazilian Wonder vis-ÀƒÂ -vis a pond of (filthy) Venezuelan mud…

      🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁

    • falupa

      Hugo Chavez
      I think that this is kind of humorous that Chavez is telling the U.S. that he told it so. If it wasn’t for oil money he wouldn’t have a military force right now. He is the one without a clear focus. He shouldn’t be focusing on building forces and more on helping his people.

    • Forrest Allen Brown

      ASP
      yes recife is a nice place , but just a bit north you have a abru lima , and the iliha itmacar, and olinda all very good just watch your back

      now as to the belem it is the only place in the world written up in a travel guide that states ( the bar across the street from the Hilton is the major place to pick up women of the evning ) and it goes on from there .

      ric go there on the day of the dead and look at the trash and new years also . just plain nasty .

      but for all its filth the opra house is a grand building and that one in manus also ,
      just watch for the rong people , and enjoy the river and the slow life there ,
      of course there is brevis and santana also on the far north of the mouth of the amazon

      and for the south of brasil it to me has by far the worst of the worst of brasil .

    • João da Silva

      Augustus
      [quote]JOAO – What a Disgraceful condition has befallen the Brazilian Nation….hopefully the brave uniformed Brazilian horoes are watching…[/quote]

      I really did not want to comment, BUT….BUT……you invited me to so! To be honest, Ric gave an excellent report on the World Socialist Forum in BelÀƒ©m. I was keeping track of this event over the press, but nothing like getting a balanced first hand account of a distinguished fellow blogger like Ric. He forgot to mention that our Prez has highly recommended that BelÀƒ©m be the venue for the World Cup in 2014 and FIFA is likely to accept it. Ric is also correct about the situation in Manaus.

      Now that PMDB has taken over both the houses and the Labor party depends on its support (and vice versa), we could expect more funny things happening during the next 18 months.

      Our ex-Prez JoÀƒ£o B. Figueiredo must be laughing in his grave. 😉 😉 🙁

    • Augustus

      JOAO – What a Disgraceful condition has befallen the Brazilian Nation….hopefully the brave uniformed Brazilian horoes are watching…
      In view of the recent series of shameful events heralded by Leftwing extremists in one site of Brazil after another, a forum for the likes of Hugo Chavez and Hugo Morales to vomit their contemptible rhetoric to a loathsome (CORJA) horde of Marxists & Anarchists in the midst of Filth and Shameful conduct (taking into account that in À¢€œsocio politicalÀ¢€Â terms I am very liberal), I hope our friends in uniform are watching with zeal what the disgraceful elements of a Labor government are doing to Brazil…

      Notwithstanding my num state of speechlessness vis-ÀƒÂ -vis this hedonistic Amazon Masquerade, I remain full of hope for the appropriate action to ensue sooner rather than laterÀ¢€¦
      🙁 🙁 🙁

    • Ric

      Social Forum III
      They had activities at several locations, among them the Universidade Federal do Para, the Univerdidade Federal Rural da Amazonia, which are both located on the river SW of Belem, and the Hangar, at the south end of the aero clube runway (33). Evidently the UFPA was cleaner and more organized than the UFRA, the latter being described as being buried in trash, smelling like a pig sty, and generally unsatisfactory to the participants.

      20,000 youth were camped out at the aptly named Acampamento da Juventude. “We came to the Amazon to discuss sustainability and there was no garbage pickup. There was garbage and even condoms spread out in all directions”, said a 20 year old visiting coed. She also questioned why locals were not allowed to attend. “We’re talking about the future of the city and all [the leaders] can talk about is whether you have an identifiing wrist band? What about those who didn’t have the money to sign up?” A 23 year old expressed her opinion, glitches in the program left participants bewildered. “Important speeches were cancelled, the traffic within the UFRA was chaotic, and nobody cleaned the bathrooms.”

      State and federal money was made available early on to fix up UFRA, paint it, buy computers and audiovisual equipment. So they are pretty happy about that and that the visitors did not destroy the campus infrastructure. Just got it dirty. Local UFRA students complained that the people from the outside pretty much left every corner of the campus in a mess.

      Which happens when you have that many people and very few bathrooms and Port-A-Potties.

      Names: Candido Grzybowski is the director of the Brazilian Ibase, or Brazilian Institute of Social and Economic Analyses. He had some pretty harsh words for the UFPA and UFRA, on Sunday. The Vice-Rector of Ufra, Sueo Numazawa, responded in kind. Where do they get these guys? Even though the feds gave UFPA 6.7 million Reais well in advance, many projects for which the money was made available were not even begun by Forum time.

      The event involved 135,000 participants from 142 countries, they say, employed 4,830 workers and gave Belem 40 million Reais, 18 million for housing and hotels, 16 million for food and meals, six million for transportation. 7,000 military personnel, most of which are still here. 3,356 sought medical help. Lots of Yellow Fever shots. 3,000 chilluns were cared for in the Nursery Tent.

      Belem may not be your cup of tea. Over 90% humidity and temperatures between 85 and 95. But there are no earthquakes, no floods (it all runs off immediately), virtually no fires, no hurricanes, cyclones, no high water like from Santarem west (the tides go 500 miles up river to Santarem), no OSHA, no EPA, no air pollution, no high winds except every ten years or so when your hangar gets blown away.

      It would appear that since Belem missed out on the Zona Franca laws (free trade zones), it is better equipped to tough it out in this economic climate since it doesn’t have all those foreign owned factories like Manaus does, which are laying people off every week in large numbers.

    • asp

      i love the north east
      oi vizinho,i love places like recife , porto das galinhas ,and i want to know maceio and forteleza

      recife has really incredible culture and history. its more powerful than the south as far as vibrant culture (im just not a fan of october fest, i do love rainha de carnival, though). i love where i live but culturaly , its weak compared to salvador, rio, recife etc (that is why i will be seeing that group at angeloni’s beira mar on the 21 of feb , because they do hard hitting samba, maracatu and axe)

      look, joao, the south is incredibly efficiant,and industrious, the beach life from march to april into may is halucinating , good people….but, the south cant have everything….and, the north east has beach life year round., incredible palm trees , vibrant culture (beleive me im not a fan of every music that comes out of there, just the heavy drum and dance stuff)

    • Augustus

      jOAO
      Still affected by what Ric wrote, I can hardly remove the horrific scenes conveyed… Indeed, I have a rule for visiting Brazil… Stay south of Brasilia by all means with the possible exception of Salvador – which is a lovely place (despite the usual poverty) In fact, if anyone goes to Brazil now, I recommend them to avoid RIO as well. They should fly to Sao Paulo and then go to Curitiba, Foz do Iguacu, Blumenau, Florianopolis and Porto Alegre…. LOL
      As for CH-C, I was NOT picking on him! It’s the truth…. I was not criticizing Switzerland (although whoever criticizes others should be ready to take it back. It is a known fact that Swiss banks do not ask questions… which is the main reason why most dictators have accounts there
      AS for his being “edited” – You may have apoint there… After all, although this SITE is run out of Los Angeles, one must bear in mind that it’s a Brazilian site, which, I fear is bound to gradually follow the Venezuelan example of oppression and censorship from the LEFT…. 😥 😥

    • Augustus

      RIC – YOUR LOVELY VISIT TO HELL
      My goodness, you just stay in the northern (primitive) part of Brazil (going from one horrible location to another)…
      Consequently, in light of the fact you appear to À¢€œenjoyÀ¢€Â such Northern Region so much, why do you still complain about it? You should know better or otherwise, enjoy the filth!

      I went to northern Brazil (to Manaus) only ONCE and just for a few days and in relative comfort (we stayed at the Tropical Hotel, which in 1990 was one of the best of the area) – and yet, what I saw (outside the hotel facilities À¢€“ which were wonderful) was sufficient to show me what I needed to make up my mind that I would never (EVER) go back there again (even to visit and even if got paid for it).

      As for the “pouca vergonha” (the scenes of Europeans having sex in public) it just confirms what I’ve already said about Brazil’s perceptions within the Developed world (their conduct reflects the reputation and example of the shameful (extreme) behavior of MANY Brazilians who live in London, Amsterdam and New York (some of which I have witnessed). In essence, Europeans and North Americans perceive Brazil as a country of SLUTS (people of all genders/age/class) and that everyone has sex with ANYTHING that walks… As such, no wonder that Europeans and Americans behave in such a manner when visiting Brazilian Cities., for itÀ¢€™s precisely what they expect to be the normÀ¢€¦

      Now.. WHAT ON EARTH did they expect to find in BELEM????? It must be the closest thing to the Brazilian expression À¢€œCU DO MUNDOÀ¢€Â (end of the world)…. It must be simply a horrible site, plagues with extreme poverty, with no infrastructure whatsoever (with the possible exception of a flurry of Luxury hotels and perhaps a neighborhood or another where the elite resides, and perhaps also a few wandering Native Americans along with homeless Northeastern Brazilians (who go to the Amazon Basis looking for opportunities) ,….

      The Hades-like scenes you described made my stomach turnÀ¢€¦. WHAT A SHAMEFUL THING FOR BRAZIL & ITS CITIZENS!

    • Forrest Allen Brown

      so should the US declare there countries off limits !!!!!!!!!!
      for trade , tourist , free food ,

      as they hate it so much , should there people be bared from getting visa to go the the US
      on visits , school , or to live ,

      as the US is vile to them why not there own people !
      should the US exple all of there people from the US , have us citisens take over any land or
      business they have in the US .

      ITS TIME FOR THE US TO GO
      TIT FOR TAT ON THE WORLD IN MY VIEWS

      see how long you would get along without us
      and then whom would you pick to fight with your pie hole

    • asp

      good on the scene commentary , ric
      as usual , the hypocracy is mind boggling

      last night i tried very hard to understand a marxist author philosopher scycologist etc named slovish or something from eastarn europe , on a tv cultura talk show.

      it is just mind boggling to see how these people try to fit square pegs in round holes to justify thier worship of marx and hatred of capatilism . the intelectual mind twisting is painful to watch and surly answers the question why comunist regimes have failed so miserably , except those that adapt capatalist principles.

      just absolutly mind boggling

      and che gueveira is a murduring pig

    • ..

      [quote]The government should compensate them, right? [/quote]

      Absolutely right. But which Government?

    • Ric

      Social Forum II
      Che Guevara’s daughter was here, Cuban pediatrician Aleida Guevara March. One of forty who took the boat over the weekend,to Maraj’o, Soure and Salvaterra. Encouraged more homeless to invade and occupy farms and ranches owned by others. Said that is was the Gringoes who own the land.

      Not on Marajo, Aleida. Better get your facts straight.

      Top complaint by attendees was the lackof info, directions, and event markers.

      Lots of vendors paid 20 reais for a space to sell food, they complained that they lost a lot of food due to deterioration, “foi horrivel para conseguir entrar aqui. Uma verdadeira falta de respeito comquen teve que pagar R$20 por esse espaco.”

      On the other hand, many attendees enjoyed taking off all their clothes on the last day of the event.

      Two visiting groups got together to protest the fact that 300 people had been rounded up and jailed prior to the event at the request of the event organizers. 200 of these were minors. They were rounded up to protect the conference attenders from armed robbers and pickpockets. They were jailed to protect you people, losers. Ingratos.

      On the other hand, like the food vendors who didn’t make much money, being incarcerated kept the 300 perps from making a dishonest living, they lost their chance to get ahead and pay some bills. The government should compensate them, right?

    • Ric

      The Social Forum
      I happened to Be in Belem at the same time.

      Disorganization, foreign visitors complaining of unmarked venues. Traffic nightmares. Tribal Indians complaining about having to sleep on the floor in local schools. Foreigners (Norway and Germany) naked on the streets having sex. Gays mad. Rained cats and dogs almost every day, many living in tents on the mud. The MST had an event to which they invited four presidents but not Lula. Dona Chiquinha (H.H.) hugging the poor chilluns for the camera. Idiots swimming in the perimeter canal. No stopping or parking on the Perimetral. No outgoing flights available on Gol until the 7th. Pot March in favor of legalizing pot. Drama staged by vegetarians. Marchers asking that homophobia be criminalized. 350 metric tons of trash and garbage left on the UFPA campus by these visitors who are mainly greenies. Ah, consistency.

      Actually I flew in from Fortaleza last Saturday and am still here in Belem. On to L.A. via Copas next week.

      That Brasil went to anti-importation measures last week shows that they are really worried about the Real, even though they had to go back on it later

    • João da Silva

      Ch.C
      Hey , Ch,C. I think that you are in the shit list of https://www.brazzil.com. Whenever I post a comment personally addressed to you, it does not appear. You seem to have become a “persona non Grata” 🙁

      I hope Augustus tries to post a message to you to confirm what I am saying.

      Never mind. We can always blog in Al Jazeera. 😀

    • João da Silva

      Augustus
      [quote]FOREST – AGREEMENT IN KING & NUMBER – NOT IN LOCUS = “SCHWEISSE BANKEN” are the preferred destination for the “hidden funds”[/quote]

      You are spoiling for a fight with Ch.C, aren’t you ? In case you didn’t know, he is already back from a business trip to CA & FL. 😮

    • Augustus

      FOREST – AGREEMENT IN KING & NUMBER – NOT IN LOCUS = “SCHWEISSE BANKEN” are the preferred destination for the “hidden funds”
      Although I agree with the “principle” of what you wrote (about hiding money) I disagree with the location – they all have Geneve, Zurick, Lausanne, Bern & Basle for that purpose – their secrets can be kept there – NO QUESTIONS ASKED 😉 😉 😀

    • Forrest Allen Brown

      ALL 5 SAID NOTHING EXCPT CAN WE HIDE OUR STOLEN MONEY IN YOUR BANKS
      other than that as long as there is the US than brasil has some one to blame on there
      countries without ness .
      as the US is the AXIS OF EVIL for any second rate government to cover there own
      butts when they themselves are to blame for there countries faults .

      AS the US government is killing its own to blame the other party and yet
      dont fix the broken machine by doing the right thing by its own people

    • Augustus

      The “5 Latin American Musketeer Stooges” (the 5 LAMS ‘s) – A “damned ensemble of Corrupt Latin American Populits”
      When the “original” Latin American “Three Stooges” (Chaves , Evo & Correa) started gathering in one Latin American capital or another, in order to plot their further enhancement of power and perhaps to “exchange formulas on Corruption, Money Laundry & Oppression (while vomiting Leftist Rhetoric and posing for propaganda Photo Snaps), I started raising the “ANTI-RED flags” in this blog.

      Then, we witnessed the introduction of the À¢€œFourth Latin MuketeerÀ¢€Â, when the Brazilian À¢€œRulerÀ¢€Â (whom I labeled À¢€œAnalfabeto NordestinoÀ¢€Â) joined that horrific group of obnoxious leaders, and became another regular Accomplice of À¢€œNeo-SocialistÀ¢€Â Group by attending (and lately hosting) every meeting held with the “original three”. Now with the introduction of the “Paraguayan President-Priest” into this Nefarious Assembly of Populist-Corrupt Neo-Socialist LeadersÀ¢€Â, I am scrambling to locate an existing terminology in order to refer to this growing cluster of ugly dangerous Latin American À¢€œStrong MenÀ¢€ÂÀ¢€¦ For now, I shall utilize À¢€œthe 5 LAMS ‘sÀ¢€Â when referring to these À¢€œRulersÀ¢€Â

      My greatest concern with the growth (in number & in power) of the À¢€œ5 LAMSÀ¢€™s is the likelihood of a gradual increase of even bolder / far more radical agendas / steps designed to bring their respective countries closer (at every step) to a type of Authoritarian rule À¢€œa la CubaineÀ¢€ÂÀ¢€¦ turning their citizens into permanent inmates of an Incarcerated Society

    • ch.c.

      Furthermore “5 Presidents Tell the US: “We Told You So”
      Were they not the same idiots who a year ago said “the US dollar is worth NOTHING ANYMORE” and that commodities prices could only go one way : UP and UP and UP and UP UP….due to China/India demand theory ” ????

      Now we know HOW smart they were !

      Ecuador President said a year ago HE will be forced to depeg its currency against the US dollar at the peak of oil, to allow its currency to appreciate….and now HE says its currency should be depegged…to allow its currency to DECLINE !!!!! LAUGHS !

      Quite similar for Chavez the Clown’s currency !

      Ohhhhh…and since then the US$ went up by 50 % against the Brazilian currency….of course !

      And more to come….in the next 1-2 years…for sure !

      Russia currency is already weaker than when it went bankrupt in 1998 ! Despite they still have Us$ 385 billion in foreign currency today and had only US$ 40 billion at the time of their bankruptcy !

      India currency is very close to its ALL TIME HISTORIC LOW…in fact made its all time low recently !
      Same for South Korea, Argentina, Mexico and many other Emerging nations !

      In my humble view since the Brazilian currency is still holding well against the Russian currency, it is not boding well for your porks exports to Russia, totalling 70 % of your TOTAL porks exports !!!!
      And this is on top of their own internal non balanced budgets problems due to the oil price declines !

      The World Trade RE-balancing has years of life ahead ! For sure !

    • ch.c.

      “We are facing a crisis in the global capitalist system ”
      Somewhat true ! But who ALSO benefitted the most of it…during 2003-early 2008 ?????
      Emerging nations with FDI that helped TRADES SURPLUSES AND ACCUMULATION OF FOREIGN CURRENCIES RESERVES !
      From over lending and over leveraging, NOW the developed nations banks and governments are swallowing their “laissez faire” and will revert to more NORMAL lending activities !

      Nothing wrong…errors must be corrected ! smiles

      And it will last for years to come…the LOWER FDI AND LOWER TRADES SURPLUSES !

      You got too much….you will get much less !

      Something not unexpected…..since I made the same comments more than once…in the last 2 years…even when the wind direction was still favorable for you !

      Trade is by definition…A TWO WAYS ACTION…NOT ONE WAY AS YOU WANTED TO IMPOSE !

      Up to you to finance YOUR COMPANIES…AT WHATEVER INTERESTS RATES….YOU DECIDE…..WITH OR WITHOUT GOVERNMENTS
      SUBSIDIZES !
      At the end whatever a government subsidizes…will also affect negatively other sectors ! Such as….INFRASTRUCTURES… that Brazil is already much short of !
      Or said differently…..It doesn change the size of the cake, but just how you split and share it !

      And if one wants to spend more than he gets or has….then he will have to borrow more in local and/or foreign currencies….which will end at weakening their own currency because the cake is not any bigger,
      but just made apparently bigger with more borrowing that will have to be paid back later anyway….with interests !

      Common sense will always prevail…sooner or later! But no one can time it precisely !

      D 😉 😀 😉 😀 😉 😀 😉

    • asp

      now, isnt that special….
      hmmmm lets see now, morales used petrobras to stage a picturbook fidel nationalisation against a brazil company ( especialy poignant since he had been in cuba the week before talking to fidel and hugo)

      lugo is haggling brazil about the foz de iguacu damn

      correa did end up lining up to pay the debt to brazil, but, after his inicial threat to not pay, surly there is a funny feeling

      hugo supports farc who is involved in huge traficing of drugs and arms to brazilian drug gangs which are decimating the big cities of brazil

      i mean talk about you better watch your back with these people, dont let the soap slip in the shower…

      che gueveira is a son of a bitch, anyone who thinks he is just hunky dory doesnt really know history or have any real perspective of it

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