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Brazilians Deserve a Cup Break. They'll Soon Be Back to Crime and Inequality. PDF Print E-mail
Written by Sue Branford   
Monday, 19 June 2006 13:56

Brazilian shantytownThe Brazilian authorities have every reason to be grateful that the soccer World Cup in Germany arrived just in time to divert people's attention from the crisis of violence and confrontation in the country's (and South America's) largest city, São Paulo.

The two labored victories against Croatia and Australia have left Brazil's people and media worrying about their team's performance, hopeful that the players will raise their game when they need to, and as absorbed as ever in the permutations and personalities of the squad (is Ronaldo overweight; is the 36-year-old Cafu past his best; can the team cope with the Argentinean threat?).

For a country engrossed in the month-long spectacle, these are the questions that matter. But when it is all over, and Brazil's players return home in triumph or disgrace, Brazilians as a whole will return to face a far starker and less glittering challenge: the condition of the country's criminal justice and prison systems, and the deeper realities of social exclusion and inequality this system is founded on.

An Urban Civil War

When a nation is absorbed in the fate of its yellow-jerseyed heroes a continent away, it's not the moment for the Primeiro Comando da Capital (First Capital Command / PCC), São Paulo's most powerful criminal gang, to put on another show of strength.

Indeed, the jailed PCC leaders will be cheering on the Brazilian side with their compatriots. Along with mobile-phones and DVD players, they have widescreen, plasma television sets in their comfortable cells; and like millions of citizens on the outside, they will toast Brazilian victories (or drown sorrows) with a good few glasses of Brahma lager.

Yet the reprieve for the authorities may be shortlived, and a repeat of the wave of urban attacks and prison riots from 11-19 May 2006 not long in coming. Then, the PCC stunned Brazil when it organized a wave of violent actions across the state of São Paulo, Brazil's industrial heartland.

The authorities had been alerted by informers that the PCC was planning a prison rebellion for 13 May - Mothers' Day in Brazil, when family visiting regulations are relaxed - and thus ordered the transfer of more than 500 PCC members to a high-security prison.

But the PCC also has its informers inside the security services; it learned of the plan, and at short notice coolly brought forward its planned revolt by three days.

On the night of Thursday 11 May, riots erupted in almost 100 prisons. At the same time gang members, armed with machine guns, attacked police stations all over São Paulo state. At the weekend, they continued the operation: bombing police stations, destroying city buses, and ambushing police vehicles.

By the morning of Monday 15 May, the 19 million inhabitants of São Paulo were understandably jittery. When rumors proliferated on the Internet that the PCC was about to unleash an even bigger and more violent round of attacks, people panicked. Schools, offices and shops shut at midday and people headed for home amid enormous traffic jams.

In fact, the PCC had by then called off its attack, apparently after making a secret deal with the authorities. Even so, what for many Brazilians turned out to be the worst aspect of the whole affair was still to come. The military police, infuriated by the death of some forty policemen and prison guards in the PCC campaign, launched its own retaliatory killing spree. Its intention from the beginning was simple and brutal: to kill PCC members or sympathizers.

A message on one police website read: "For every Mike ["military policeman" in the organization's argot] who has fallen, two criminals must die." Another was even more sinister: "It's time to cleanse São Paulo, to get rid of this filth in our midst."

Over the next few days 122 "suspected criminals" were killed in the city. Eyewitness accounts reported that men dressed in black and wearing hoods drove into shanty-towns and shot people sitting in bars or outside their houses. Antônio Funari, the São Paulo police ombudsman, said that at least 28 of these victims had no criminal record.

The episode had a huge impact on the city's population. Before 11 May, many Paulistas - particularly among the middle classes - had scarcely heard of the PCC. They now know that it is a large organization with 140,000 members in the state's jails and another 500,000 in the wider society; that it is partly funded by a well-organized system of monthly contributions with different rates for prisoners and free members; and that it has built up a large network of informers, from lawyers to taxi-drivers.

The scale of the gang's activities and ambitions is remarkable. A federal police report says that the PCC is responsible for at least 20% of the transport and high-value crimes in the country. In just one spectacular robbery, in Fortaleza (northeast Brazil) in August 2005, the gang seized three tons of bank notes with a total value of 164.8 million reais (US$ 73 million).

The PCC's Power: Three Sources

Why has the PCC been so successful? This is the most painful question of all for many middle-class Paulistas. Amid their soul-searching, three answers suggest themselves.

First, the PCC's main recruiting ground is the prisons. It has been known for years that Brazil's prisons are a humanitarian disgrace: overcrowded, with cells meant for three people containing twelve; rife with drugs; lacking any rehabilitation policy; and characterized by administrative chaos that leads to many prisoners being detained long after they have completed their sentence.

Heidi Cerneka from the Catholic church's prison ministry - who in 2002 commented that "(public) space" in São Paulo "is identified more and more with violence, danger and abandonment" - points out that the PCC is the only organization that has done something for these abandoned people:

"Through their campaigns they have reduced the level of violence in prisons; they have won better visiting rights, even paying for coaches for family members who have to travel long distances, and they have provided defense lawyers for their members."

The PCC is also utterly ruthless, Cerneka says: "They defend to the death their members but they have no qualms in assassinating anyone who betrays them or owes them money."

Second, the authorities are making this bad situation even worse. Paulo Sérgio Pinheiro, one of Brazil's most committed human-rights defenders, has been saying for years that the government should dismantle the repressive public-security bodies set up by the military dictatorship in the late 1960s.

The military police were created in that era to combat leftwing guerrillas, and today use the same tactics to target criminals in shantytowns; it is a refocusing of their efforts without a rethinking, and one that fails to take account of the very different nature of the security challenge.

The military police's attitude can be gauged from the slogans that its officials have adopted. Saulo de Castro de Abreu, the secretary of public security in São Paulo state, has repeatedly said: "A good bandit is a dead bandit buried in the moon."

Ruy Ferraz Fontes, a top detective from São Paulo's department of investigation into organized crime, has a sign printed on his door: Direitos humanos para os humanos direitos ("Human rights for right-thinking humans"; if the Portuguese pun does not translate well, the sentiment is plain).

The words reflect and fuel actions: the military police are accused year after year of the systematic flouting of human rights, including the cold-blooded murder of hundreds of suspected criminals.

Third, an even more serious problem lies behind the expansion of the PCC. Brazil is one of the most socially unjust societies in the world. Around 46% of national income goes to the richest 10% of the population, while the poorest 50% earn only 13.3%.

Moreover, Brazil's social (and racial) apartheid is paralleled in the existence of two systems of justice: one for the well-off and another for the poor. Members of the (largely white) middle and upper classes are very rarely sent to a common jail. As Brazilians say, prisons are for pobres, pretos e putas (the poor, black people and prostitutes).

The lot of the poor is a routine denial of justice. In early June 2006, cross-fire between the police and a criminal gang in a school in a Rio de Janeiro shantytown wounded seventeen children.

When the mothers arrived, the school was a scene from hell: wounded children screaming, panic-stricken youngsters hiding under desks, blood on the walls, desks and clothes. Yet there was hardly any investigation or follow-up, and the story was scarcely reported in the papers. No one expects those responsible to be punished.

I myself had a maid from a São Paulo favela whose husband and son had tried to protect the daughter of the family's neighbor from sexual abuse by her father. The abusive neighbor killed the two men. The devastated maid repeatedly complained to the police, but the neighbor was never even arrested.

Two Worlds

President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, the center-left president inaugurated in January 2003, has helped the poorest of the poor. A greatly enhanced social-welfare system has meant that the income of the poorest 10% of the population has risen by 23% in these three years, far more than the national average.

This policy will almost certainly ensure that Lula is re-elected for a second term in October 2006. But the president's extremely cautious economic policies - under the guidance of his ex-finance minister Antonio Palocci (who resigned on 28 March 2006 after being implicated in the convulsive mensalão [vote-buying] scandal which dominated the country in 2005) have produced low growth levels and the creation of few new jobs.

The socially excluded in Brazil remain excluded, and crime is growing. Around 340,000 Brazilians are behind bars today; the number is expected to rise to 500,000 by 2008. This scale of increase suggests that Brazil should be opening a new prison every fortnight. There is no sign of this, guaranteeing a further deterioration of jail conditions and a recurrence of rioting.

The Primeiro Comando da Capital offers the predominantly young men caught up in its activities a kind of future, something that official Brazilian society fails to do. The PCC's income, derived largely from robberies and drug-trafficking, is estimated at approximately one million reais (US$ 445,000) a month. It is reported to be opening  gas stations and transport companies to facilitate the laundering of these funds.

Millions of poor, black Brazilians will passionately cheer their country's football team if it caps its efforts in Germany by retaining the World Cup. Many will see in the exploits of talented youngsters from deprived backgrounds such as Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Kaká a projection of their own dreams.

These skilful and fortunate few may have found another route to riches, but it is a melancholy reality amid soccer's joyful carnival that many Brazilians left behind have few options of survival, protection or escape, except to join gang networks like the PCC.

Sue Branford reports from Latin America for the BBC and the Guardian. She is co-author (with Jan Rocha), of Cutting the Wire: the Story of the Brazilian Landless Workers' Movement (Latin America Bureau, 2002) and (with Hugh O'Shaughnessy) of Chemical Warfare in Colombia: The Costs of Fumigation (Latin America Bureau, 2005).

This article appeared originally in OpenDemocracy - www.opendemocracy.net.

Comments (176)Add Comment
...
written by Guest, June 19, 2006
well, pretty accurate from my experiences here.

Just wish some of these idiots who try and pronounce that brazil is a wonderful place to live could sit in the shoes of the 40+ million who make less than 2 dollars a day for a couple months.
Poor fool!
written by Guest, June 19, 2006
I think that the biggest idiot is you, who chose to live among us...
Go home to a "safer" place. For instance, a city as clean, organized, and well-developed as New Orleans comes to mind...
Tchau moron
...
written by Guest, June 19, 2006
40 millions on two dollars a day makes me feel you are not well informed. Certainly your CIA people goofed again. Two dollars a day is half minimum wage. Street vendors use to make more than that.
Where have you had your experiences here? Copacabana Palace? Itanhangá golf club?
Now, just tell us, what is a nice guy like you doing in a place like this? Dan Mitrione was also doing something around Latin America until the tupamaros fixed him.
...
written by Guest, June 19, 2006
Maybe Sue Branford could tell us about the Scotland Yard and the brazilian they assassinated in London. It is now a long time and the truth is hidden under
secret d´état .
It is too clear some foreigners have a flair for favelas, crime, póverty.
As to football, it is too early to rejoice. Wait and see.
Parreira was stupid I admit. Ronaldo should not be playing. I have heard that some obscure publicity contract has that he must play every match. Had he not played but Robinho the store would be different .
Anyway it is too early to suppose you already have a corpse to feed vultures like ... who?
...
written by Guest, June 19, 2006
Once a friend spent a few days with a british couple in London.
The couple and the two-year old boy used the same and very same water for bathing. First the boy, then the wife, and finally the husband.
For washing the plates they would fill up the sink and threw all plates into it and then washed everything in the very same water.
They did not have dinner. A snack was enough for saving money.
Their hone was adjoining another. At night they could listen to the neighbors talking.

They were middle class, but life was far from free of worries.
When Thatcher was P.M. she started a politics that sent millions out of work.
The present P.M. isa a liar who has sent thousands of young men
to a fate worse than death itself.
If you read the Guardian you can see about the mental conditions a lot of these come from war. Neurosis would be too light to describe it. .

...
written by Guest, June 19, 2006
Correction: store -- no ; story -- yes.
...
written by Guest, June 19, 2006
quote:

"40 millions on two dollars a day makes me feel you are not well informed."

Obviously, you're the one that's not well informed....which statistics do you want?? Those from the brazilian government itself or the United Nations?

Really getting tired of posting this s**t over and over for you idiots that have never stepped foot in brazil and find it unbelievable that this type of reality exists for huge percentages of the population here.
Math Checker
written by Guest, June 19, 2006
One million reais is $445 thousand dollars and not $445 million dollars. The income of the PCC is mistated.
Brazilian
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
Thanks for this article. I am a native, black and European descendent= true Brazilian and I support to death the Brazilian soccer team.Brazil is still a young country with 500 years and a brite future ahead.....We are learning and developing our society as we did with soccer( imported from Brits) and hope with no biesed view of this changing world...
if 23 % in 3 years....
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
is the income growth of the poorest 10 %, then let me asked how the wealthiest faired, because if :
- they invested their money Without Risk at the short term government rate they made far more than 23 %....in 3 years....even after taxes.
- they invested in the Bovespa and they at least doubled or even tripled their money.
- they invested in real estate and they also made far more than 23 %.

Then please explain how the wealth disparity has been reduced....EVEN somewhat.

Concerning the violence, there is not even a pause during the WC.
Just read what happened 2 days ago with the new explosion of violence in the jails !
The PCC is putting some pressure....again !
They will win....no doubt.

And if a country of 500 years is still a young country, what will you say in 500 years ?
The USA is "only" 200 years old and is the world engine, while Brazil remains on the queue despite being quite older !
What have you done during these 500 years ???
Not much....as per ALL economics and social stats.
You lagged for 500 years and will continue to do so for the next 500 years....minimum.
You even lag compared to ALL developping countries.

WAKE UP ! STAND UP !

CONCERNING THE IDIOT AND THE MORON WHO SAYS THAT IT IS WRONG THAT 40 MILLIONS OF BRAZILIANS LIVE WITH LESS THAN $ 2 PER DAY :
PLEASE GIVE US YOUR STATS AND YOUR SOURCES.

STOP HIDING THE TRUTH LOZEIDA, you dont even know what is happening outside your city that has the biggest number of kidnapings in the world.

You are a medieval country with archaïc laws that are not even applied !!!!!!
Simply stated your THE WILD WEST.....LIKE AMERICA WAS 200 YEARS AGO.
This shows how kate you are in your development !
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
"Time" magazine for June 26, 2006 front page cover boasts India as "India incorporated." Time runs a long article giving accolades to India and its prosperity. Basicly sizing it up to be a great nation. The article points out thought that while India has 23 billionaires, 10 more than China has, 81% of it's population lives on $2 a day or less compared with China that has 47% of it's population living on $2 a day or less. Now I don't know how well I want to trust these figures. I'm not sure how well I trust many figures depending on how they are derived. I remember my brother telling me that in the U.S. the homless shelters report a figure or estimation of unemployment quite contradictory to the U.S. federal governments reports of unemployment. I have no idead who would be right.

But at any rate... I'm no math whiz, but by my calculations if Brazil has 40 million people out of 180 million people living on $2 a day or less, that would come out to about 22% of it's population. Which begs a number of questions concerning U.S. bashing of Brazil but accolades given to China and India. It also begs the question, if poverty is the only or major source of homicide in Brazil or the world, why then is not India and China having PCC type gangs shuting down cities like the PCC did in Sao Paulo, Brazil?

I would also like to know how middle class Brazilians could not know the PCC exist if there crime and murder is as rampant as it is? I don't doubt the PCC is as that bad, I just find it hard to believe middle class Brazilians could not know about them. I mean I grew up in a predominately middle class neigborhood in the U.S. and gangs, murder, and rape were a part of life. I find it hard to believe it is safer living middle class in Brazil than it is in the United States.

I would also like to know how come gringo media focus so much only on negative things about Brazil yet seems to spotlight the positive things about India and China so much more frequently?

Article and commentary I found interesting on theworldforum.org under "Brazil doesn't know Brasil"

www.theworldforum.org/story/2005/3/26/153958/271

...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
Quote:

"One million reais is $445 thousand dollars and not $445 million dollars. The income of the PCC is mistated."

Reply: Thank you because the $445 million confused me. Nonetheless $445 thousand per month is a lot.

I think Sue Branford is certainly right about one thing though: Brazil's prisons are a nightmare and only help breed and facilitate more crime and orginized crime. As well if masses of people are unsafe or feel unsafe in Brazil they will take to a culture and element that gives them the best practical sense of protection be it violent or even criminal.

...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
quote:

"But at any rate... I'm no math whiz, but by my calculations if Brazil has 40 million people out of 180 million people living on $2 a day or less, that would come out to about 22% of it's population."


You're exactly correct!


quote:

Select a country: Bangladesh Benin Bolivia Brazil Bulgaria Burundi Cameroon Côte d'Ivoire China Colombia Dominican Rep Ecuador Egypt El Salvador Estonia Gambia Ghana Guatemala Guinea Haiti Honduras Hungary India Indonesia Iran, Islamic Rep Jordan Kazakhstan Kenya Kyrgyzstan Lao People's Dem Rep Lebanon Lesotho Madagascar Malawi Mexico Morocco Mozambique Namibia Nepal Nicaragua Niger Nigeria Pakistan Peru Russian Federation Rwanda Senegal Sierra Leone South Africa Swaziland Tajikistan Tanzania Togo Turkey Ukraine Uzbekistan Yemen Zambia

Selected EarthTrends Data:

BRAZIL

Variable Value
Gini Index{1} 58
Population living on less than $1/day{2} 8%
Population living on less than $2/day{3} 22%
Poverty Gap $1/day{4} 2%
Poverty Gap $2/day{5} 9%
Access to improved sanitation{5} 76%
Access to an improved water source{5} 87%
Literacy rate, all adults{5} n/a
Life expectancy, both sexes{5} 68 years
Definitions and Sources
{1}Data are from surveys administered during 2001. Ranked by per capita income



http://earthtrends.wri.org/povlinks/country/brazil.php
Exchange rate fallacy
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
It's folly to talk about comparing incomes in dollars world-wide.

The purchasing power of the local currency is what's important for such comparisons.

Also, these income statistics don't include non-cash income, such as subsistance farming, barter, payment in kind, etc. That's how most of these low-income people can survive on what appears to be an insufficient income.

...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
listen, less than 2 dollars a day is around 4 reais per day, or right around there.

If you think that any human can survive in a "decent" fashion on 4 reais per day you have no idea of the reality here in brazil.

And this certainly isn't an income that "appears" to be insufficient....IT IS INSUFFICIENT!
The Rule of Law
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
The problem with Brasil's prisons is not there harshness; they are too soft.We(brasilians) need to get tougher on criminals( BOTH WHITE COLLAR, RICH, POLITICIANS, and normal day to day banditos), and really show them that CRIME DOES NOT PAY. At the moment, crime does pay.Crime is a very effective and feasible way to make wealth without risk or fear of sufficient penalty in Brasil, or that the penalty will be served to anywhere near the extent of the sentencing. I dont break the law, I respect the law, so why should other people break the law and not face due and severe penalty for breaking laws.
Much tougher love needed in Brasil. Much tougher.

...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
----Brazil is still a YOUNG country with 500 years and a brite future ahead.....

Canada is only 139ish years, don´t use that ole "we´re a young country" excuse with us. Brazil after a thousand years will still be run by a bunch of monkeys without a clue.
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
There’s still crime in the city but it’s good to be free
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
Quote:

"It's folly to talk about comparing incomes in dollars world-wide.

The purchasing power of the local currency is what's important for such comparisons.

Also, these income statistics don't include non-cash income, such as subsistance farming, barter, payment in kind, etc. That's how most of these low-income people can survive on what appears to be an insufficient income."


Reply:

This makes sense.
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
such as subsistance farming, barter

Boy those Cariocas and Paulistas are some damn fine subsistence farmers . . . I've seen entire banana plantations on patios in highrise apt. complexes . . .
Response to Author
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
Even though I agree with everything you said, You have to remember that Brazil is a third world country.One thing is for sure, and that is that the inequality will stop for the poor and the Blacks one day. Either through politics, or as Malcolm X said,"by any means necessary"
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
Quote:

"such as subsistance farming, barter

Boy those Cariocas and Paulistas are some damn fine subsistence farmers . . . I've seen entire banana plantations on patios in highrise apt. complexes . . ."


Reply:

That's a fair point you make (in sarcasim). But I'm going to assume the other poster might be including gardening, and not just farming, into the equation.
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
I look at flogao.com sometimes, and I notice mostly white Brazilians, but I see a lot of mulattas and morenas on their too, be they teenagers or young 20 somethings. Though I hardly ever see any blacks. But I also notice many of these white girls, mulattas, and morenas, take photos with each other, hugging each other, in a comfortability that is quite rare if ever to see in the United States. The great majority of mulattas in the U.S. identify as Black and seem to feel only accepted (at least more so) around Black women. The antagonism between white girls and mulattas (as well morenas) seems to be far more marked in the U.S. than in Brazil. In the U.S. it is rare for certain color groups to hug each other and smile in photo, certain color groups just maintain a certain distance from one another.

Can someone in Brazil tell me if these young ladies in this photo are of a classic middle class Brazilian family or a classic rich Brazilian family? Because I see many dark girls on flogao of this socio-economic level.

Picture: www.flogao.com.br/amoasmulheres2/foto/015/59452119
Dont hide yourself !
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
One cannot compare, as he does, developing countries with the poorest countries.
It would be like comparing the richest nations with Brazil !!!!!!

Also, One cannot compare China and India with Brazil.

China and India have a far lower GDP per capita than Brazil !

It remains that Brazil has the world highest poverty rate when compared to its GDP per capita !

SIMPLE !

Nothing to be proud of !

A director of the World Bank said recently that it is amazing how Brazil, with a relatively high GDP per capita for a developing country, has so much poverty.
Some Brazilians areas look like a poor African country !

Cheers !

Comparing income !
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
The Brazilian PPP per capita is around US$ 8000.- and the non PPP is around Us$ 4000.-

Now you can do simple maths : 22 % of the population are making less than Us$ 4 per day using the PPP.

Now, if you put Bill Gates in a Northeast Brazilian stadium with 45'000.- fans,all, statistically speaking, would be millionnaire and in US$ !
It remains that only Bill is the multi billionnaire and the other 44'999 are poors!
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
Quote:

"One cannot compare, as he does, developing countries with the poorest countries.
It would be like comparing the richest nations with Brazil !!!!!!

Also, One cannot compare China and India with Brazil.

China and India have a far lower GDP per capita than Brazil !

It remains that Brazil has the world highest poverty rate when compared to its GDP per capita !

SIMPLE !

Nothing to be proud of !

A director of the World Bank said recently that it is amazing how Brazil, with a relatively high GDP per capita for a developing country, has so much poverty.
Some Brazilians areas look like a poor African country !

Cheers !"


Reply:

India's GDP for 2005 is topped $800 billion according to Time magazine. And it had the second fastest economic growth rate in the world, enough to gain India 10 extra billionaires in a single year and top it over China in number of billionaires. Hence massive wealth went into Indian economy but did not touch let alone trickle to the masses of poor people.

Brazil by contrast had a GDP for 2005 at a little over $600 billion, posted modest economic growth, and more of its wealth is distrubuted throughout the country than in India.

So India has a larger GDP than Brazil but with over 2/3 of it's people living in poverty.


Excerpt from Time Magazine, dated June 26, 2006:

"Although India boasts more billionaires than China, 81% of it's population lives on $2 a day or less, compared with 47% of Chinese, according to the 2005 U.N. Population Reference Bureau Report. That class divide is starkest in cities like Bombay, where million-dollar apartments overlook million-population slums. For all it's glitz, Bombay remains a temple to inefficiency. In 2003 it had one bus for every 1,300 people, two public parking spots for every 1,000 cars, 17 public toilets for every million people and one civic hospital for 7.2 million people in northern slums...

India's GDP (gross domestic product) growth was 8.4% last year vs. 10% for China, while foreign investment in India was an estimated $8.4 billion, compared with $72.4 billion in China.

But India does possess one indispensable asset, which has sustained its democracy and catapulted it to the cusp of global power: ingenuity of its citizens. And nowhere is it in greater supply than in Bombay. 'Things just happen here,' says Sanjay Bhandarkar, managing director of investment bank Rothschild's India. 'Because people have to make things work themselves.' The rise of China has been the product of methodical state planning, but India's is all about private hustle, a trait that Americans can appreciate. Rakesh Jhunjhunwala, a billionaire trader in Bombay, says initiative represents Bombay's - and India's - advantage over it's competitors. 'It's people who make countries,' he says, 'not governments.' "


Time magazine also says that "about 2 million people of Indian descent live in the U.S. The average household income of Indian immigrants in the U.S. is the highest of any ethnic group." In other words poor Latin Americans come to the United States, whereas poor and uneducated Indians by-in-large stay in India and her educated and better to do Indians immigrate to the U.S.

If gringos can respect the "hustle" of Indians in India - a nation as corrupt or moreso than Brazil - than it should be able to respect the "hustle" of the average Brazilian to make it and live in life.

I also found it interesting the Time article implied elsewhere that one of the reasons India should be considered a good country and showered with accolades is because *it is no longer giving the United States a pain in the ass, but rather is a friendly ally and may help U.S. interests in Asia against China.*

Which begs the question is gringo animosity against Brazil rooted in not just prejudice against Latino's but in the fact Brazil is not as docile to and ass kissing to the U.S. as India is?
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
More excerpts from the Time article, related to Bombay and India, which perhaps can have some insightful correlations to Sao Paulo and Brazil.

Excerpts:

"As the subcontinent's New York City, Bombay is built not on tradition but on drive... The city's stock exchanges account for 92% of the country's total share turnover, and the nation's central bank and hundreds of brokerages and investors have set up their Indian headquarters there, including such globals powerhouses as HSBC, JP Morgan Chase and Bank of America. Bombay handles half of India's trade, and its southern business district is one of the centers of global outsourcing boom. India's music industry and much of its media are based in Bombay, as is India's Hindi film industry, Bollywood. Such concentration of business activity breeds a sophisticated, cosmopolitan outlook - hence Bombay has India's best hotels, bars, restaurants and nightclubs. And everyday, according to the official census, hundreds move to the city to seek their fortune.

To migrants from India's poor states, the metropolis is known as Mayanagri, the City of Dreams. To its slums come people from India's villages, hitching rides and dodging train fares, prepared to sell spicy peanuts at traffic lights for a few cents a day and pay $1 a month to live in a tin hut. For some of them the principal opportunity the city offers is a life of crime - running bootlegging operations or gambling dens - or renting out the hovels in which millions of Bombay's inhabitants live. Just as for Bombay's gilded elit, the city is the place to be. 'I came from nothing,' says a Bombay gangster who grew up in Bihar, India's poorest state and owns 30,000 huts in four slums. 'Now I have money, phones, cars, houses, a wife and two girlfriends. If you were me, you'd love Bombay too.'

That not to say it's easy to love. If you judge Bombay by governance, it sounds as though the city is falling apart. In a calamity last July that was mercifully forgotten with the advent of Hurricane Katrina weeks later, heavy monsoon rains flooded Bombay for a week as the city's 150-year-old drains and sewers collapsed. At least 435 people died. The infastructure bears other scars of neglect. In the city's small and ancient stock of trains, each is crammed with an average of 4,500 people, although most have a capacity of 1,750. As a result, passenger groups say, an astonishing 3,500 travelers die every year on the tracks, hundreds simply falling from trains... Movie director Shekhar Kapur, who returned after years in London and Los Angeles, says living in Bombay means confronting the class divide daily: 'This must be one of the few places on earth where the rich try to work off a few pounds in the gym, step outside and are confronted by a barefoot child of skin and bones begging for something to eat.'

Those urban extremes can be hard to take, but locals pride themselves on their pluck and self-reliance. When the floods hit last year, rescue workers were nowhere to be seen, but shanty dwellers sheltered businessman, slum children rescued film stars, and untouchables saved holy men. 'There was a feeling that went through people,' says film producer and director Mahesh Bhatt, who is suing the city for its alleged mishandling of the crises. 'We realized no one was going to descend from the heavens to solve our problems, and we were going to have to do it ourselves.' "

The article goes on to say regarding international foreigners coming to work in India:

"The reason for the influx, says Gupta, is that anyone in any profession can rise faster and higher in Bombay than almost anywhere else. The author E.B. White said, 'No one should come to New York to live unless he is willing to be lucky,' which could just as easily be said of Bombay today. Says Gupta: 'That's the thing about Bombay. It's the place of possibility'...

India's great hope hope runs on hope itself. Hope is the reason Gupta stays in Bombay, despite falling ill from diesel fumes each time she crosses the city. Samant says it's why, unlike in New Orleans, the people didn't disintegrate with their city after the floods. Hope brought Bombay together and keeps it together. 'Look at Dharavi,' he says of the city's notorious slum, biggest in Asia. 'The place has a GDP of $1 billion a year. Dharavi makes you realize everyone has a stake in keeping Bombay going.' One day all those millions of expectations will have to be satisfied. But for now, the City of Dreams is living up to its name."


In one of my previous posts I have to correct myself on India's billionaires. I'll just quote the magazine: "A surging stock market has boosted the number of Inddian billionaires to 23 - 10 of whom are new this year - compared with eight in China. India's billionaires boast a combined net worth of $99 billion, an increase of 60% from the year before."


I'm not Brazilian, and I have no answers to Brazilian problems, but two things occur to me. Like the United States, Brazil has both a cowboy/guacho past and a strong culture of guns. And that's not to say either the U.S. or Brazil should outlaw guns, but certainly guns have an impact on the way orginized crime functions and spreads as well as on a individual city's or nations homicide rate. The other thing that occurs to me is that perhaps more Brazilians - at least those with enough food in their stomachs - can look upon Sao Paulo and Brazil more as the "cup half full" instead of the "cup half empty." Certainlt Sao Paulo has as much hustle, culture, liberal open mindeness, and industrial drive and savy as New York City and Bombay.

Keep your head up Paulistas and Brazilians! smilies/smiley.gif
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
Brazil began miscegenation 500 years ago. Therefore, now you have less and less real black people, contrarily to the USA where prejudice is rampant.
Nowadays, in the US you keep involved with a divided country (whites X blacks ) while in Brazil the population becomes whitier ands whitier.
In 100 years the US will still be talking about African-Americans (ridiculous ) instead of just saying "Americans".

Classifying people according to color of their skin is o fim da picada.
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
A friend of mine , who is a very intelligent woman, went to visit India. She was dismayed at the conditions millions of people live there. You are talking about a minority (also millions ) . Mostly, they have no good habits of hygiene, they live in slums, s**t on the streets, schooling is deficient.



...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
The highest PPP per capita and the GDp and the PGG and the UDS makle you think that you know what you are saying. However , Time said that India bla...bla... and New Orleans bla , bla , Oh. they are so well off even after Katrina. Bla, bla, and the GDP And the PQP, and the KLU, and the Klux and the Klan, and hahaha.
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
The directyor of the world bank said: bla, bla, bla...
And the neighbor of my cousin said: bla, bla, bla,
And a Brazilian said: PQP, quem é este panaca? ,
And bla, bla, and the guy I met said: bla, bla,

And the guy behind the bar counter said: bla, bla.
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
It´s simple math: 2x2=7
And bla, bla, bla.
My pal said: bla ( sorry he was sick that day )

An I asked the guy in the elevator: What is best the bla or the blaaa?
Do you know what he said? Guess what. PQP - AUA



...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
Canada is only... and Canadians are a bore. They have no joie-de-vivre.
Americans are worse. Their films and their TV are a disgrace. Obese people and McDonalds go together. And they are everywhere in the States.
Oh, $$$ bla, bla, Gupta said: bla.,
Mehta said: Oh my God, where is my manual???

...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
Kenneth Courtis in his essay contribution to the Time article says:

"In 1997, much of eastern Asia's flourishing economy was leveled. Next were Russia, Turkey and Argentina; Brazil teetered on the brink. By early 2001, Silicon Valley, the pride of the U.S. economy, was crashing, while entire sectors of the so-called New Economy disintegrated.

The tech wreck may be over, but it has left a legacy of low prices. Tech companies had to dump on the market everything from fiber-optic networks to computer chips, as deperate investors struggled to raise cash. That slashed telecommunication costs at the very moment that emerging markets were producing skilled and hungry generation information workers. Result? The offshore outsourcing revolution and downward pressure on global production costs that keeps inflation under control. Equally powerful are the Ultra-low-cost emerging-market manufacturing bases, led by China. With more than 1 billion people set to enter the urban labor markets of China, India, Brazil, and Indonesia in the next 20 years, all those pressures on prices will only intensify.

More immediate forces are also at work to keep prices from surging. Despite some wishful thinking, growth in Europe is slowing, not accelerating. A large part of U.S. growth has been driven by booming real estate prices. But in the past two years, the Fed has increased rates 16 times, so real estate-driven consumption is yesterday's news. Tomorrows's story will be the sharp fall in U.S. growth as consumers face higher mortgage costs. That dynamic could become nasty, given the record level of U.S. household debt, government deficit and unequal current-account shortfall."


Aravind Adiga essay contribution to the Times article says:

"Located in India's southwest coast, Mangalore is hot, hilly and carpeted in coconut palms. When I was growing up, young men of all religions were united by shared values of hardwork, enterprise and a desire to get out of Mangalore as quickly as possible. My brother left when he was 18. I left when I was 16...

But the past decade has seen extraordinary change - and extraordinary excess - in Mangalore. The fastes growing industry is education. During the 1980's, higher education became the only way out of a broken system for many fustrated young Indians. The best doctors and computer engineers had a fghting chance of nabbing a lucrative job offer from Silicon Valley or Manhattan. So boys and girls throughout India streamed into colleges and institutes, where they studied calculus and organic chemistry with a passion that was probably unrivaled anywhere else in the world. In recent years, the trend has accelerated. Mangalore had one medical college when I left; it now has five as well at least four dental schools and 14 physiotherapy colleges. Some 350 schools, colleges and polytechnics are listed in its yellow pages.

A lot of new colleges, predictably, focus on computer education. They tempt young recruits with the prospect of rewards that would have been inconceivable before the outsourcing boom...

The city's new affluence manifests itself in subtle ways as well... Others spoke in a similar manner of a simpler life that was disappearing... A Catholic friend's daughter had married a Hindu, and her family no longer spoke to her. A Hindu friend's daughter had been divorced by her husband. Divorce, extramarital affairs, interreligious marriages, homosexual flings - the doors of experience had swung open in Mangalore. The small city had grown up."


Time also runs a separate article on "the new battle over America's low-wage workers" titled, "Trying to Make A Decent Living." In the same June 26, 2006 magazine. Picturing two Black American low-wage workers (one a young man the other a middle aged woman; both janitorial) it says in caption of one:

"Craig Jones, Cincinnati, Ohio. $6.50/hr. Jones wears a bandage after being mugged and shot recently after work. He walks home every night because he can't afford a car on his near minimum-wage salary."

"His employer, Professional Maintenance, a cleaning contractor, usually scheduals him just four hours a night, five nights a week, so Jones' biweekly paycheck amounts to about $260, before taxes. The monthly rent for his spartan ground-level apartment in a once industrial part of town is $215, so there's little left after phone and utility bills and food. He hasn't bought a new piece of clothing in years."

The article says Jones is 27 years old. So there is a silent lesson in Jones American experience, to a person in Mangalore, to a person in Brazil: *Education or skilled trade and craft, as well as staying out of felony convictions into the prison system, are the most sound way to rise economically.*

Brazil could learn a lesson from Mangalore, India as well as China: *Invest in your peoples education.*
USA OBSERVER
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
BRAZIL STOP SENDING YOUR ILLEGALS TO THE U.S.A.!!!!WE ARE ABOUT TO "'RETURN TO SENDER" !!!!!!!!
USA OBSERVER
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
BRAZIL STOP SENDING YOUR ILLEGALS TO THE U.S.A.!!!!WE ARE ABOUT TO "'RETURN TO SENDER" !!!!!!!!
...
written by Guest, June 20, 2006
From Time article "Trying to Make A Decent Living."

"The major difference between Gray and Jones, say advocates for low-wage workers, is that she lives in a city where janitors are unionized and have collectively negotiated salaries considerably above the minimum wage, what they call a living wage. The living-wage movement has been building steam as outsourcing moves millions of relatively high-wage manufacturing jobs over seas, leaving behind less mobile, low-paying ones such as health-care aides, security guards and janitors."

Former North Carolina Senator John Edwards saying: "But my feelings now on the subject are stronger than they've ever been. You can't live on $6, $7, or $8 an hour and have anything to fall back on. Instead of getting ahead, which most families want to focus on, they're focused on survival."

The article continues: "One of the key battlegrounds of the new offensive is Cincinnati, which gained 8,400 service jobs in 2004 alone... 'What happens in Cincinnati is more of a lens into future of work in this country than what happens in New York City or Los Angeles. It's workers in these smaller cities doing the low-wage work who set the tone for how workers are treated throughout this country.'

Pittsburgh janitors fought and unionized and won out to increase their wages along with decent benefits. Now their city is flourishing far more than cities like Cincinnati. In Pittsburgh home ownership is up even amongst the poor. The photos of Gray's nice and furnished home from that of Jones spartan unfurnished apartment with no bed but just a mattress is like the contrast between night and day. Gray now helps work to get janitors in other U.S cities like Cincinnati to unionize.

"Pittsburgh is its Exhibt A. Once hailed as America's Iron City, Pittsburgh has gone from a manufacturing stronghold to a service-dominated economy... When Gray recently told a group of Cincinnati janitors about her wages, health-care coverage and vacation time, 'they didn't believe me,' she says. 'They wanted to see my pay stub'...

As Janitors' wages have risen, salaries for Pittsburgh jobs have followed suit. Security guards, for instance, working in buildings where unionized janitorial workers are employed, have seen their earnings advance in parallel. Over the past three years, the median household income in the city has grown nearly 3%, from $39,643 to $40,699, adjusted for inflation. And annual janitorial-job turnover, as high as 300% in Cincinnati, is just one-tenth that rate in Pittsburgh. As a result, contractors' cost for recruitment and traing are signficantly lower. 'For a community and its families, wage gains for low-income workers mean the difference between living precariuosly at the edge of the economy and having a stake in the American Dream,' says Beth Schulman, author of 'The Betrayal of Work: How Low-Wage Jobs Fail 30 Million Americans'...

Cincinnati shares many attributes with Pittsburgh. Both are Rust Belt cities with midsize populations - 314,000 for Cincinnati and 322,000 for Pittsburgh - and workforces similar in size and composition. Each has seen its once mighty manufacturing base crumble... But they diverge in their treatment of janitors and low-wage workers, and living-wage advocates say the results are telling. In Cincinnati neighborhoods like Over-the-Rhine and West End, where Jones lives, are poor wages coupled with high rates of drug use, street violence and truancy have created a cycle of interdependent problems. More than half the adult black males in the two neighborhoods are without full-time work. In the West End alone, 76% of the children under 5 are living in poverty, and per capita income is $9,759 a year."


Craig Jones is in photographed in one of the pictures, at work dumping trash, with a big white bandage over his left facial cheek, where he was shot after being mugged, His left eye is consequently swollen and bruised. -- Life is brutal and merciless, going onto higher education, tech training, or something of the sort is the best way for a Brazilian, Indian, Chinese, or American to break from and escape the tragic grip of poverty and the despair and crime rideen neighborhoods that often comes with it.
...
written by Guest, June 21, 2006
---Canada is only... and Canadians are a bore. They have no joie-de-vivre.
Americans are worse. Their films and their TV are a disgrace. Obese people and McDonalds go together. And they are everywhere in the States.
Oh, $$$ bla, bla, Gupta said: bla.,
Mehta said: Oh my God, where is my manual??? --

Point proven, give enough monkeys a typewriter and eventually one will crack out a phrase or two. Let's distribute another million computers in Brazil, and maybe, just MAYBE one will be able to make some rational sense.
Alagoas: a local tale
written by Guest, June 21, 2006
A conversation I had last week here in Alagoas with two local lady lawyers I was teaching English to:
Me; I just don´t understand why, with all the terrible poverty here in the North-East, the poor people don´t at least hold street demonstrations and try and improve their living conditions. You know, agitate for clean water and better schools, things like that.

Lady lawyer1; slightly confused. Why would they do that?

Me. Well that´s what would happen in Europe, the French would block the roads, for example.

Lady lawyer2 . But it wouldn´t achieve anything except the troublesome people would become injured or die.

Me: Injured? Die? How? Why?

LL1 Because the police would stop them.

Me: How?
LL2: They would probably round up the leaders, beat them up a bit, you know, to warn them to stop making trouble.

LL1 And then if these people did it again, and there was real trouble, the politicians would have them killed by pistoleiros.

Me? You can´t be serious!

LL2: Of course. The state is controlled by about 20 families, they all marry each other and keep the money and the power. Anyone who threatens their power they just kill them. Lots of examples if you want.

Me: So I´d better not teach my poor students in the favela all about peaceful protest and so on.

LL2 Are you mad?

LL1; No he isn´t , he´s just a European who has no idea how Brasil works.

Me; Well I´m learning fast!

LL1. Just go to the beach, enjoy the football and the rodizio and the sunshine and the mulattas like all the sex tourists who come to the North-East. Don´t you think?

LL2; Yes, I agree, don´t interfere. It´s none of your business. We don´t go to England and tell you how to run your country, do we? And anyway, you shoot Brazilians in England, so what right have you got to come here and tell us how to behave?

Me; Right. Let´s get back to the present perfect, shall we.
RE: Alagoas: a local tale
written by Guest, June 21, 2006
Quote:

"LL1; No he isn´t , he´s just a European who has no idea how Brasil works.

Me; Well I´m learning fast!"



Reply:

Given this is coming from you I doubt that tale.

But assuming all that is true - and I have read the North East is ran by dynastic families not to unsimilar to antebellum south in the United States although more violently in Brazil - it's up to the people to muster courage for change. A many a U.S. citizen died - no less WWI veterans marching on Washginton D.C. - protesting laws or trying to orginize labor.

But regardless the North East is not cosmopolitan Sao Paulo. And it was in Sao Paulo that the PCC burned buses and murdered police while sending fear into the masses. It is the *favelas* that were estabished as squatter camps for all the rural people - such as from the North East - migrating into the industrial cities such as mighty Sao Paulo.

You see, even though I have never stepped foot in Brazil, reading (being "fundamental" as it is) has it's benefits, because my reading books on Brazil allows me to at least catch areas of your propaganda in which you attempt to distort things to project Brazil lack luster and empty of any virtue or civilization. Such as your attempt to confuse and convince readers that have never been to Brazil that the culture of the North East, as well geography, is one in the same of the megalopolis Sao Paulo.

Granted one can only learn so much from books, and experience is a far greater teacher, as well actual experience predicates *truth.* Nonetheless reading can help a mind grow when experience lacks, and can help increase better judgment and discernment.

Now bite my ass. And go Brazil! smilies/smiley.gif
America is a s**t hole
written by Guest, June 21, 2006
America is a s**t hole
Written by Guest on 2006-06-21 11:53:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
America is a s**t hole with nothing to offer but the prospect of being in debt and maybe making a decent living.

Americans are the s**ttiest people on earth. Black Americans treat each other like total s**t. If you don't toe the party line they will make your life a living hell. White Americans are culturally BANKRUPT. They don't know drumming from drooling. Americans are cynical and negative about everything. If roads aren't perfectly paved, if they don't have 5000 TV channels, and they can't stuff their fat faces for 24 hours straight they will whine until you can't hear yourself think. I hate America, I want your money not your friendship. f**k it! I don't want your money, give me mine back. I am taking my funloving black butt to Bahia to spend the rest of my youth basking in the glow of peace, culture, and life.
Teaching in Favelas
written by Guest, June 21, 2006
Actually I think Brasil is the best country I´ve ever been to in my life, (I´ve been to 48 so far)which is why I have upped sticks from cold wet miserable England and moved to Alagoas. I wasn´t trying to denigrate Brasil or Brasilians in any way, other than to add my sixpenceworth to the main article. Until recently I taught English in three local favelas, and the students were the best I´ve ever had, their optimism and happiness shines like a beacon, which is why I started the conversation with the middle-class lady lawyers whose children I really dislike teaching, spoilt little brats. I just don´t understand how such hard-working and intelligent, if uneducated, people can put up with such violent and blatant discrimination for so long. The ladies anwered my question; fear, pure and simple. Poor peopleknow that if they step out of line they will get into serious trouble. But I didn´t want to give the impression that all is bad, it isn´t. There are few more beautiful places than Alagoas, and fewer still places with such friendly kind people. If you haven´t visited Brasil, I urge you to do so, but come with an open mind. It´s like nowhere else on earth.
Is middle class deprived?
written by Guest, June 21, 2006
The author states:

"Many will see in the exploits of talented youngsters from deprived backgrounds such as Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Kaká a projection of their own dreams."

Ronaldinho and Kaká came from "deprived" backgrounds?Since when has it been considered deprived to be from the middle class?
Re: Exchange Rate Fallacy
written by Guest, June 21, 2006
I’m the person who wrote “Exchange rate fallacy”, and I have a very good idea of the reality in Brazil. I was writing about survival, not having a “decent life”. The fact that there’s not mass starvation in Brazil is ipso facto proof that it is possible to survive in Brazil on a very small amount of money. I am equally sure that life is a living hell for many of the people that have to survive on a minimum salary or less.

Let me introduce you to a much more grim alternate reality. People from India who might read this should realize that I am only writing about what I observed, I am not “India bashing”.

I spent some time in India in 1975. Here’s how it was (and I pray to God that it’s different now):

In the cities there were people working 16 hours a day, seven days per week for US $0.25 per day. You might well wonder how they could survive on this pittance. It was enough money to buy one meal per day of flat bread or rice and lentils, and with careful budgeting, some used clothing every three or four years.

The poorest people, at the lowest rung, lived on the sidewalks and under bridges. Their only possession was usually a blanket (very obviously never, ever, washed) that they used to cover themselves while sleeping. The next rung up, if they were lucky enough to find a bare piece of ground and some cardboard, sticks, and maybe some plastic sheet, lived in small huts.

The rung above the hovels (and this is highly subjective) was the slums, which were built haphazardly five stories high out of whatever was available. They covered a large area, and the passageways were narrow enough that you could easily reach out and touch the walls. I’ve walked through favelas, but you couldn’t have paid me enough money to walk through these slums in India. One of my Indian friends described them as “sick”. The population density was about 5,000 people per hectare, the highest in the world. This works out to less than 2 square meters of floor space per inhabitant (about 18 square feet per person, actually). In the surrounding areas, my friends advised me not to wear a ring on my finger because otherwise someone was likely to cut off my finger in the crowd in order to get my ring. The police were routinely armed with submachine guns.

Most Brazilian favelas that I have seen would have been considered middle-class in India at that time.

Also at that time, the government of India had instituted a program of forced sterilization in order to try to reduce the population growth. Villages that resisted having all of their women sterilized were bombed by the Indian Air Force. There was only one channel on television, and the programming consisted mainly of video of smallpox victims.

In the cities, if you looked like you might have any money, you were mobbed by beggars. By this I mean that if you didn’t tell the first beggar to get lost, within two minutes, you would be surrounded by fifty or more beggars to the point where it was impossible to move. The government was rounding up beggars, loading them on trucks, taking them out of the cities, and dumping them in the countryside in the middle of nowhere.

The average salary for government workers was about US $300 per year, which was considered “well-paid” and placed them solidly into what passed for India’s middle class. A skilled worker, such as a journeyman gem cutter, was paid about US $1.00 per day.

I got an invitation to stay with a family and accepted it. They were considered upper-middle class, but not quite rich. The family made about US $1000 per month from a clothing factory. They had a three story house and a servant. There was running water and electricity in their house, and adequate food. In the kitchen they had a two-burner counter-top gas stove that used bottled gas. They didn’t have a refrigerator or any other appliances.

The water for bathing was heated in a plastic bucket with an electric heating coil. I was warned to be careful not to allow the coil to be plugged in out of the water or it would burn up, and a replacement would be expensive and hard to obtain.

The bathrooms had a hole in the floor with a pot that collected excrement. These were not flush toilets; there was a bucket of water to use for washing down the unit. Every two weeks, the untouchables would come and clean out the pots.

They didn’t have a telephone, and transportation consisted of a Vespa-type motor scooter and a bicycle. Entertainment consisted of a transistor radio for the family, which frequently didn’t have batteries because they were too expensive.

Remember, this is how the upper-middle class lived.

Corruption by officials was rampant. One could see bribes being passed in public for mundane things like a seat on a train that was “full”. I even had a customs officer offer to give me money to buy something for him from the duty free shop at the airport.

Outside of the cities, the poor people generally fared better when times were good, and seemed happier. There was very little money in the countryside, and much was done by barter. Please note that only monetary income is counted in the statistics, and this can be misleading, particularly in the countryside. On the minus side, there was a lot of share cropping by greedy landowners, and when the crops failed, a lot of people would starve to death.

An interesting side note was that more than once I had people come to me as an American, and thank me for the food aid that the U.S. has sent under the Kennedy administration in the mid 1960’s. They told me that that they would have starved to death without it. I guess sometimes foreign aid actually does get to the intended recipients. smilies/smiley.gif

Anyway, I hope those that read this can realize that US $2 per day is still a long way from the bottom.

...
written by Guest, June 21, 2006
hey bud, this is 2006, and I've been here in northeast brazil for the last 8 years, 2 dollars a day isn't even HALF the minimum wage here in brazil, and people that make minimum wage, 350 reais per month, can't make it on only that, by themselves.

2 dollars a day here in brazil is MISERIA....an absolute battle to survive!
...
written by Guest, June 22, 2006
what is the point writing about a place how it was 30 years ago...
things change a lot in 30 years
...
written by Guest, June 22, 2006
yeah, his dribble made absolutely no sense and had absolutely nothing to do with nothing.

Seriously ignorant of someone trying to tell us how things were in India 30 f**king years ago to try and relate that 2 dollars a day "ain't that bad".

Those conditions he was describing, they exist here in brazil TODAY...and worse!

There ARE living conditions that are WORSE than in the favellas, just drive on up to the northeast....you'll see 'em camped out alongside the road in their tents made out of hefty trash bags and sticks and are situated in dirt...and now that its the rainy season.....they literally live in the mud!

Sorry
written by Guest, June 22, 2006
You had to have been there.

I was giving an example of how things used to be, and I realize that it was 30 years ago, but trust me, it was a LOT worse than anything that Brazil has to offer. Does Brazil have hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of people dying each year from starvation? I think not.

I actually left out some of the worst things, like parents maiming their own children so that they could make more money as beggars, etc.

My point was not that trying to live on two dollars a day is a good thing - it is not. I was just pointing out that there are worse things than that.

Also, today in India, things presumably are better, and they could get better in Brazil as well with the right changes.





India vs Brazil
written by Guest, June 22, 2006
I work for an NGO and have recently been to India and Brazil working in the last few years. A fevala in Brazil is luxury to one in an Indian city. And that's before you add in the benefits of Brazil.i.e. Samba, football and bunda. The rural poor in contrast are about the same, but Brazil is more urban than rural - most people forget that. India is the opposite. Health care in india is non existant. At least in Brazil the HIV patients get free treatment.In the present time I'd rather be Brazilian than Indian if I was given a choice,but in the long term India will supercede Brazil unless Brazilians change their attitude and respect to each other. The poor in Brazil are expanding 6 times faster than the middle / upper classes so a tipping point is enevitable at some point. Develop or die.
Nine years?
written by Guest, June 22, 2006
Hey Bud,

When's it going to be NINE years? I'm getting tired of your posts about how you've been in Brazil eight years, so nine years would make a nice change.

Do you think that being in Brazil for eight years make you an authority on Brazil? I've been in Brazil for double that, so does that make me twice the expert on Brazil that you are? If your arguments can't stand on their own, then writing about how long you've been in Brazil makes zero difference.

Many people write here about how bad things are in Brazil. How many of you have actually done anything to make things better in Brazil, anything at all? If you have, good for you! If not, "put up or shut up".


...
written by Guest, June 22, 2006
US FOOTBALL TEAM: GO HOME.
Re: It´s like nowhere else on earth
written by Guest, June 22, 2006
Thanks. I´ll keep this statement in mind.
I´m so used to foreigners saying bad things about Brazil...
...
written by Guest, June 22, 2006
Regarding the issue of race or racism in Brazil and its correlation to poverty, I PM'd a guy I converse with on another forum geared towards mixed race people and started by a few mulattos in the U.S. I sent him the same flogao.com link I queried about on here, because unlike me he has been in Brazil, plus I have always understood him to be of fair and sober mind, as well as experienced in the world.

I asked his permission to post his reply here on this board as long as I excluded his name/handle. Here is his first reply to me:


"Hey Justin:

I was in Brazil in 1993 for 6 months. I was doing a kind of Peace Corps type thing through a Danish organization. I traveled pretty much along the coast of Brazil-south to north, but most of my contacts were with very very poor people.

The problems I have with many of these discussions about racism in Brazil (yes it does exist, where doesn't it) is definition. People will conclude that because the wealthy are primarily white and black people are primarily poor, whites are exclusively wealthy and the poor are exclusively black, and this is racism.

The reality is more complicated....Where I spent most of my time, the state of Sergipe in the northeast, the poor were actually primarily mixed. When I say this I mean these people appeared to be for the most part so outside of the black and white phenotypes that even mulatto wouldn't readily describe most of them. As a group, they appeared to be African/Amerindian/Portuguese/and even Dutch (the Dutch had colonized portions of the Northeastern Brazil). Even at that time when my thinking on race was very different from my thinking now, it was difficult for me to accept that these people were all black.

Now as far as the middle classes (as small as it is sadly), based on my experiences (and these are mine), they appeared lighter than the poor generally, but there was much overlap. Again many middle class people in Sergipe (mind you this is the equivalent of Mississippi in the U.S.), looked no different from many people on this message board, including the two of us. Some looked like Jennifer Lopez-meaning they were olive-complected with “European features”, but definitely had other ancestries. Others were even more ambiguous. But many of these people did not see themselves as white.

Example: One of our traveling companions had friends in the City of Belo Horizonte in central Brazilian state of Minas Gerais. We stayed with his girlfriend and her family. Her parents were originally from the state of Bahia, but described themselves as morenos. Many of her cousins looked the same way: light olive of very dark olive skin tones with straight hair and angular features, almost like a person from India. Yet I met some of their friends who I presumed were middle class as well, but these people looked more like you or me. Based on my observations, there didn’t appear to be a hard and fast rule that middle class people have a certain complexion, though the well to do were generally whiter than everyone else. In summation, people who were not wealthy were very diverse in appearance, though distinctly black people were less common. The poor were also diverse in appearance, but distinctly black people more common but not the majority. Different Brazilian cities or regions may be different and in Belo Horizonte, I saw a few distinctly black middle class people.

I’m at work, so I’m not able to look at the pics you posted, but I will say that the current president of Brazil is white (sort of) and comes from a desperately poor background. His whiteness didn’t guarantee him the presidency, and
he is as white as the former president who definitely not poor.

In the end, racism exists in Brazil, but the place is so class-bound and jumbled up genetically, that there is less racial tension than there is here. Personally, there were things on the racial front in Brazil I liked and disliked, but I do not think it would be prudent for Brazil to adopt a more U.S. approach to race. That would be disastrous for many reasons.


I’ll look at the pics when I get home and post some of the pics of my trip to Brazil, especially some of the folks I worked with so you can get a feel for how the people look."
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written by Guest, June 22, 2006
Give a monkey a typewriter and he will write an essay on respect to differences
Give an American Joe Schmo a computer and he will tell you how every country should become a copy of America.
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written by Guest, June 22, 2006
Here are some subsquent relpies back and forth to one another in Private Message. Again I was given permission to repost these on here by the party I was conversing with. Are convo is regarding the flogao.com photo link I sent him as well posted on here:


HIM: "BTW, I just looked at the pictures. Some of these darker women would be middle class, some not. You probably wouldn't see many of them amongst the wealthy.

The lighter, "white" girls you'd probably see in the middle class rather than the lower classes, but it's not like Brazil is devoid of poor white women. There are alot of them in the country, just like here. Of course there are loads of poor Aryan-looking women in the southern part of Brazil, but people like that predominate.

I'll post some of my pics from Brazil so you can see the broad cross section of phenotypes among the desperately poor folks amongst whom I worked."


ME: "@ bold: I'm amazed you say that. I was expecting - hell I was certain - all the young ladies from dark brown to white would at least be middle class (upper middle class in relation to the U.S.). None of them have the outward attributes of broke down poverty. The way they dress (mean "material consumption"/consumerism) and their smiles denote middle class attributes to me of what I imagine of Brazil. Hell many black lower middle class neigborhoods in the midwest here, are much harder in the face, less inviting and friendly, bespeaking ready to fight and war."


HIM: "One can infer from my statement that it would be difficult to determine class background of many Brazilians by looking at their skin tone. I guess that's what I was trying to convey. So, yes, if we look at things beyond skin tone/complexion-demeanor, attitude, healthy teeth (ha-ha)-all of these women could be /are members of the middle class or at least they are not part of the desperately poor. I was looking strictly at skin color and not other less obvious markers of class (like many in the U.S.), which you were doing. That’s insightful on your part and overlooked by many. May I suggest in posting your responses to people about this issue you address this fact that there are other physical markers of class to which we don’t pay attention.

I guess what I was saying and what you were implying was skin color alone does not determine a person’s class position in Brazilian society. Though the wealthy are more or less exclusively white, everybody else is multihued. Naturally this varies from place to place. The south is much whiter than the rest if the country."
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written by Guest, June 22, 2006
Give a guy 6 months in Brazil and he will think he is an expert. Have you been to the South? Have you contacted German, Polish, Ukranian, Russian, Spanish... descendants?

Have you been a boy, a teen in Brazil? Have you learned the Brazilian folklore songs? Do you know the Brazilian history? Have you learned to like football as a Brazilian does? Would you react to a situation as a Brazilian would?
I had an American friend for 40 years - he is dead now - He learned a lot about Brazil. He got married to a Brazilan woman. He was very well welcomed by people he met.HE NEVER STOPPED BEING AN AMERICAN IN MOST WAYS.
Anyway, he had good qualities and I became his friend.
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written by Guest, June 22, 2006
Quote:

"Corruption by officials was rampant. One could see bribes being passed in public for mundane things like a seat on a train that was “full”. I even had a customs officer offer to give me money to buy something for him from the duty free shop at the airport."


Reply:

One of the young men on another message board I belong too, is Canadian and East Indian. In a thread about India - pointing out its good and beautiful attributes I might add, along with some less flatering things about it - he seemed to express a bitterness or resentment towards India, including regarding his last trip there. But one of the big things he seemed to express animosity for - and I'm speaking of the tone of his writing - was about the corruption. If memory service me correct he made some snearing remark that once you enter India be prepared to start paying off the police and et cetera.
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written by Guest, June 22, 2006
The day American whites accept American blacks and miscegenate widely, I will believe in US equality.
Being a dicotomic country (blacks on one side and whites on the other side ) reflects the pending problem.
Brazil has been mixing up races and colors for 500 years and this has caused a complexion you cannot clearly define.
However, you can absolutely say that every new day Brazil is becoming less and less black.
In 100 years the US will still be grappling with the white X black discussionBy then, Brazil will have been out of it for a long time.
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written by Guest, June 22, 2006
Cite a country where there is no corruption. You can be co