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In the Globalization Going on in LatAm, Brazil Is Last in Line PDF Print E-mail
2006 - November 2006
Written by Joachim Bamrud   
Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:14

Brazil and globalizationDespite growing populism and political tensions, Latin America is becoming more globalized, according to the 2006 Latin American Globalization Index from Latin Business Chronicle. But Brazil, Latin America's largest economy, managed to become the least-globalized economy in the region.

The index of 19 countries looks at six factors that measure a country's links with the outside world:

 * Exports of goods and services as a percent of GDP.
 * Imports of goods and services as a percent of GDP.
 * Foreign direct investment as a percent of GDP.
 * Tourism receipts as a percent of GDP.
 * Remittances as a percent of GDP.
 * Internet penetration.

Panama cemented its position as the most globalized country, while Brazil replaced Argentina as the least globalized country in Latin America. The countries in the CAFTA trade pact uniting Central America and the United States lead the way, followed by the Andean Community members. Mercosur is making the least progress.

Of the 19 countries included in the 2006 index, 14 improved their score, while only three saw declines. The average score for the region is now 9.14, up from the 8.76 in the 2005 index. The 2006 index includes two new countries, Haiti and Bolivia, the poorest countries in Latin America and South America, respectively. Cuba was not included due to insufficient data.

CAFTA

The Central America-Dominican Republic Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA-DR, or more popularly known as CAFTA) is the big winner in the 2006 globalization index. Five of its members captured the top seven spots, including the number two position. All but one of the six CAFTA members improved their score from last year.

Costa Rica and Nicaragua made most progress, but also El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras became more globalized. Costa Rica jumped from third place overall to second place, while Nicaragua jumped from sixth to third place on the index.

Costa Rica ranked second in the categories exports, tourism receipts and Internet penetration, while it ranked third in imports and fifth in FDI. Nicaragua ranked second in imports and FDI, third in remittances and fifth in tourism receipts.

Those scores helped offset its low Internet penetration, the lowest in Latin America in 2005 (excluding Cuba). Honduras also did well. It came in second in remittances, third in tourism receipts as a percent of GDP and fourth in imports.

The Dominican Republic, which was second last year, fell to sixth place as a result of a significant decline in its score. Its trade, tourism receipts and remittances as a percent of GDP in 2005 fell compared to 2004. But it boosted its Internet penetration slightly. The declines in scores are largely due to GDP growing faster than trade, tourism receipts and remittances.

The Dominican economy last year expanded by 9.3%, the highest growth rate in Latin America along with Venezuela. And despite the decline in tourism receipts as a percent of GDP, the Dominican Republic is still the leader in Latin America in that category.

While Costa Rica is the most globalized economy in CAFTA, the least-globalized economy in the pact is Guatemala. Its score improved, but its ranking fell. Guatemala had Latin America's second-lowest exports as a percent of GDP and the sixth-lowest Internet penetration. These low scores offset good results such as having Latin America's fifth-largest remittances and eight-highest tourism receipts as a a percent of GDP.

All in all, CAFTA managed to reach an average score of 11.05, which was better than the Andean Community (8.17) and Mercosur (7.12).

Andean Community

Four of the Andean Community's members improved their score, led by new member Chile, which jumped up one place on the overall ranking. But also Peru saw a significant increase in its score, followed by Ecuador and Colombia. The fifth member, Bolivia, was not included in last year's index.

While Chile is the most globalized country in the Andean Community, Colombia is the least globalized nation. Its low score also qualified it to become the second-least globalized country in Latin America.

Chile is the leader in Latin America in the categories FDI as a percent of GDP and Internet penetration and came in fourth in terms of exports as a percent of GDP. Its tourism receipts as a percent of GDP, however, were among the lowest in Latin America and remittances were practically zero.

Colombia's low rank is due to low scores in categories like third-lowest exports and tourism receipts as a percent of GDP and fifth-lowest imports. These came on top of average results in categories like FDI and remittances as a percent of GDP and Internet penetration.

The Andean Community overall is more globalized than Mercosur, but less than the CAFTA countries.

Mercosur

Mercosur is the big loser. Brazil has fallen to the last place in the index. Uruguay's score also fell, while Venezuela, Argentina and Paraguay improved their score. Overall the total score became the worst of the three leading trade groups in Central and South America.

Brazil had the lowest imports as a percent of GDP in Latin America, and the fourth-lowest in exports. It had the second-lowest tourism receipts as a percent of GDP and the fifth-lowest remittances as a percent of GDP. And in categories where it should do well, like FDI and Internet penetration, it only came in sixth and seventh, respectively.

Argentina fared better than Brazil, but has little to brag about when it comes to globalization. Its exports, imports, FDI and remittances as a percent of GDP are among the five lowest in Latin America. Argentina did well in only one category - Internet penetration - where it came in fourth overall.

While Brazil is the least-globalized within the group, Paraguay is the most globalized. Its exports as a percent of GDP were among the top seven countries in Latin America, while its imports and remittances as a percent of GDP were higher than the other Mercosur countries. That helped offset relatively low scores in categories like FDI, tourism receipts and Internet penetration.

Panama

Panama improved its score from last year and solidified its status as the most globalized economy in Latin America. The country ranked first in categories like exports and imports as a percent of GDP, and fourth in FDI and tourism receipts as a percent of GDP. It scored lower in remittances and Internet penetration, but not enough to take way its top spot.

The high score in trade is largely due to the commercial activity at the Colon Free Zone, the second-largest free zone in the world (after Hong Kong). Panama's high trade volumes have resulted in the country being the home of Latin America's second-largest container port (Colon).

Panama's high score in FDI is due to growing investments in sectors such as real estate, shipping and finance. The US$ 500 million acquisition of BAC International Bank de Panama by GE Consumer Finance last year was the 22nd largest M&A deal in Latin America in 2005, according to Thomson Financial and Latin Business Chronicle's Top 100 M&As in Latin America.

Panama hosts the largest international banking center in Latin America, a major reinsurance center, the region's largest company registry, the world's largest shipping registry and a growing maritime sector taking advantage of the Panama Canal.

Mexico

Mexico, the second-largest economy in Latin America, came in ninth place on the 2006 index - the same rank as in 2005. It thus fared much better than Brazil and Argentina (the other two big economies in Latin America) but lagged smaller economies like Haiti (the smallest in Latin America), Panama and most of Central America.

Despite being the undisputed trade leader in Latin America, as a percent of GDP its trade is at best average. Its exports reached 29.9% of GDP, while imports reached 31.5% of GDP in 2005. The same result is repeated in FDI, tourism receipts and remittances, where Mexico is the top Latin American country in real terms, but average when measured as a percentage of GDP. Mexico did do well in Internet penetration, coming in at fifth place (ahead of Brazil, but behind Argentina).

Outlook

Panama is expected to continue being the most globalized country in Latin America, getting a a significant boost from a US$ 5.2 billion expansion plan for the canal. "Beyond the expanded capacity, another direct beneficiary of the enlarged Canal will be the Colon Free Zone,"

Robert McMillan, former chairman of the Panama Canal Commission argues in his new book, Global Passage. "The Panamanian facility will see increased traffic as large container ships are offloaded to distribute cargo to Eastern ports in North and South America."

Panama and the Central American CAFTA members are also expected to boost globalization further as they reach a free trade agreements with the European Union, possibly as soon as 2008. That will make it the only region in Latin America outside of Mexico with free trade agreements with both the United States and Europe.

Globalization in Colombia, Ecuador and Peru will likely get a boost from a free trade agreement with the European Union. The EU announced during the EU-Latin American summit in Vienna in May that it would start negotiations this year with the Andean Community for a free trade agreement.

In reality that means Colombia, Ecuador and Peru as Bolivia is not participating and Chile already has a hugely successful free trade agreement with the EU. A further boost would come if Colombia and Peru were able to implement a free trade agreement with the United States.

The agreements have been reached, but are pending US Congressional approval, which likely will be delayed as a result of the Democrat victory in US elections recently. Although Colombia and Peru will benefit from an extension of current duty free access to the United States, only a free trade pact will provide significant increases in two-way trade and foreign direct investments, three key factors in the globalization index.

The Mercosur countries are expected to continue to be laggards in globalization in Latin America. They are the only ones without any prospects for free trade agreements with the United States or Europe.

Uruguay may boost U.S. trade and investment thanks to an Investment Framework Agreement (TIFA) with the United States, with is being negotiated and may be signed either by the end of the year or during the first months of 2007. In the short term, both Brazil and Argentina are benefiting from increased exports to China.

"Short term, Asia is the option for Brazil and Mercosur," says Riordan Roett, director of the Latin America studies program at Johns Hopkins University. But that may be a double-edged sword, he warns. There's great demand short term, but no control over pricing, he points out.

If "Brazil succumbs to the China card and places all of its trade cards in the export basket [that] dooms it to resource-dependent growth, which is a loser-policy," Roett says.

This article appeared originally in the Latin Business Chronicle. For further details visit www.latinbusinesschronicle.com/app/article.aspx?id=536



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Comments (94)Add Comment
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written by Robbie, November 22, 2006
Anyone remember how several years ago people were writing Panama off? And now, in spite of the image that "the Colon Free Zone" conjures up, they are big success.........
Yeahhhhh... Yet Another Gold Medal For Brazil....
written by ch.c., November 22, 2006
....if you invert the ranking !!!! Laugh Laugh Laugh !

This is what I been telling for 2 years.....already : how bad is Brazil and whatever Brazilians or Lula think or tell, afterall, only stats and the comparative rankings......are worth something and nothing else !

No doubt that many forum members who will still be in disagreement! Not recognizing facts and numbers, rankings and ratings, is quite usual from Brazilians and their Government leaders !
More bad faiths there are none !

Looks like even that Lula and his gang of inept Ministers disagree ! Smiiiillle.......

Stop hiding and lying, at the end, comparative rankings will reveal the truth anyway !

But hiding, cheating and lying has been the daily life of Lula and his gang of corrupted to the roots crooks !
Ch.c is a cancer
written by A brazilian, November 22, 2006
You never have anything to add to anything posted in this website, good or bad. You have no idea what you are talking about, what a f**king retard.

This site is for Brazil bashing, for the sole purpose of putting this country in a bad light, only for showing the bad side of anything and propagate US propaganda.
sorry for you !
written by ch.c., November 23, 2006
I am no the author of the ranking(s) !
If you have a complaint, send it to those who do the rankings, not to me !

it is not my fault if you are ranked so badly in the various comparative rankings....but
YOURS...by definition.......in my view !

What can be said of positive about Brazil, when you are continually at or near the bottom of rankings ??????
That your performances are great ???? Ot that your failures to perform are generalized ?

Anyway....enjoy you ranking here and there ! Laugh !!!!!!!
To A brazilian !
written by ch.c., November 23, 2006
I am not so sure, contrary to what you pretend, that this site is "reserved" for bashing by Brazilians only !

Otherwise Nooooo people from foreign countries would or should have access to it !

Or would you allow foreigners ONLY when they have compliments for the Brazilians and their country BAD performances ??????

Therefore why do you even allow negative articles or rankings on Brazil to be published in this site ????? Just read them all...there are literally thousands of them !

Smile....!!!!!
"ch.c." IS RIGHT!
written by Costinha, November 23, 2006
But hiding, cheating and lying has been the daily life of George Bush and his Nazi gang of corrupted to the roots crooks ! Agreed.

Now then, your gene pool could use a little chlorine, dogs**t american.
The American Moral Bankruptcy
written by CarioCAO, November 23, 2006
The capitalist wars of conquest waged by the United States under the false pretense of spreading freedom and liberty.

In any city or town in America one encounters the surreal landscape of temples serving capitalism and consumerism. Wal-Mart, McDonald’s and hundreds of others US corporations continue their rapid growth of self-worship. For appallingly meager wages and benefits, cashiers tending these sacred churches of blind greediness gather the offerings that enable their fellow faithful to reap the fruits of practicing their devotion.

However, those mixed “blessings” include working in jobs amounting to plain servitude, obesity, insurmountable debt, insulation from the rest of the world, unwitting support of a merciless militaristic regime evolved into fascism, pointless worship of celebrities and money, severe desecration of our environment, reinforced by an obscene concentration of wealth into the hands of a very few. In short, a spiritual wasteland

The myth that the United States is a germinating seed of freedom, equality and human rights is just that, a myth. A republic forged primarily by wealthy land-owners freeing themselves from the tyranny of King George, hence creating a powerful federal government that excludes the working class other then the occasional elections of representatives, purposely limited by the impact of the selected Electoral College. For long, it barred women from participation, ignored Native Americans, and maintained the legality of slavery, some still lingers.

In recent years, this character showed its true intentions to the world by engaging in numerous imperialistic endeavors, exercising its iron fist of economic rules of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich

America’s schools indoctrinate the notion that capitalism is the superlative socioeconomic system in the history of humankind. A Propaganda intended to keep its people pacified, working and consuming. The dark side of the American way is not for the common good but rather, for the naked brutality that enables a privileged few to mercilessly pursue their personal interests, amass private fortunes, and hoard the lion’s share to itself.

Relentlessly, the United States pursues an avenue of social Darwinists, allowing the upper stratum of the society free reign. Consider that most US presidents came from families ranking amongst the wealthiest 3%, in 2005, 143 of 435 US Representatives and one in three Senators were millionaires.

Wake up American people!
The Article Is A Joke
written by e harmony, November 23, 2006
The article is a joke. Brazil is doing smart by protecting itself with tariffs and importing less than it could. The United States did the same thing against England and Europe when it tried to build up its industrial base a century ago and Japan did the same thing decades ago.

Chile and Argentina are ranked as members of the 50 or so nations in the world listed as "high income nations" by per capita income. Brazil is ranked as a "middle income nation" but with its recent rise in average wages it is not far from becoming ranked amongst the "high income nations." Brazil is also ranked along with North America, Western Europe, Japan, Australia, and South Africa as a nation with 60% and over of its labor force in the tertiary sector which signifies its advancing economy.

Sao Paulo is the so called "Chicago of Latin America" for a reason I don't think any city in Panama has taken that title from here. Brazil is like a Heavy Weight contender building herself up - not to fast and not to slow - if "globalization" means accepting free trade agreement that may allow foreign corporations to establish themselves as corrupt promoters setting you up for a knock down and beat down by the United States... then Brazil is on the right track.
Ohhhh Nooooo !
written by ch.c., November 23, 2006
A century ago, developing countries were in no way able to be competitive in the Industrial sector - You had none !
Even today, please name a known Brazilian Car Manufacturer !!!!!! They are all foreigners !

And as to your iron ore, you sell them mostly to China, who produces added value goods, far cheaper than Brazil can !
Because despite the transportation costs, they are still more competitive than brazilians ! Sorry for you....guys !
You even export cotton to them, which is then resold all over the world ion shirts, T shirts, etc etc, including in Brazil, because you are no longer competitive worlwide. Your textile industry is losing jobs as fast as in developed countries ! For your info in the EU, for example, 60 % of shoes sold are produced either in China or Vietnam, while you are chilled when China export 1 % of your Textile industry in your country !
Buying cheaply make goods more affordable...in our view....not yours !
If you agree with the way to import the least possible, why bother us at the WTO that we buy the most....from you ? smile

As to the member talking of Nazis, please review the Brazilian and LATAM history : most Nazis were welcomed, arms wide open, IN YOUR COUNTRIES ! Against cash....of course...so that they could hide in your countries...to avoid justice !
Sad reality !

As to the wealth of the US senators, if one third are millionnaires, please tell the audience, how many Brazilian senators are NOT millionnaires ! Far less than one third !
Just read the article on this site early this year : Brazilian senators have higher salaries and perks than their peers in UK, Spain and some other EU countries ! Funny to have so much poverty.....and so much wealth ! Afterall it is not me who ranks Brazil as one of the World Most Wealth Inequal Country....but an International Agency...!!!!!!! You could as well complain to the BraziIian reporter that wrote the salaries and perks of Brazilian Senators, if you disagree with these latest comments and rankings ! And Not to Me.....because from my side I just remind you where your rankings are, but I dont make the rankings !

I know, I know, reality is hard to swallow !

And is Brazil really a heavyweight contender ? With the worst growth rate of all developing countries, with the highest interests rate in the world after inflation and with a GDP per capita of around US$ 4000.- ?????? Stop caressing your navel.
My own country, with a population 26 times less than Brazil has twice your tourism revenue, and we dont even have a sea access ! Believe it or not but in 2005 we exported more than Brazil did....yessssss ! And we have no oil, no natural gas, no ferrous or non ferrous metals in our ground and not 1 local or foreign car manufacturer ! And we export almost no agricultural product either !

And to the one against globalization and free trade....why do you then insist at the WTO too...but only in agricultural products....not in Industrial and financial services !!!! Because you are competitive only in agricultural products and nowhere else...! Quite simple !

Therefore yessss you are a heavy contender due to the nature of your population size ....and also to what God has given you......land, sun, rains but you are competitive only in BASIC commodities not in added value Industrial and Financial products ! But you are not even a contender on a per capita basis !

Stupid questiona to all of you : if you are not growing far in excess than developed nations, how and when will you effectively fill the wealth and development gap ? And if all developing nations are growing at twice your growth rate or more, wont they fill the gap....against Brazil....in 2 or 3 decades at most ? Smiiiile -smilies/wink.gif)))
furthermore....continued !
written by ch.c., November 23, 2006
Please re-read the above article. Your ranking has been rated by the report and published....but not by me !
Therefore, once more, it is not with me that you could/should be in disagreement !
Ch.c you are an idiot
written by A brazilian, November 23, 2006
Whenever an intelligent person sees "numbers" published anywhere he should ask how that was retrieved and what that really means. You blindly believe in and anti-brazil propaganda, or prenteds to, just for the sake of making some stupid comment.

Especially numbers published by american or europeans agencies, that has a long history of propaganda against latin american countries, always sensationalistically portraying these lands as some sort of "evil place" for a variety of reasons.

Besides the stupidity of the article, your ramblings "..this is X times greater than that..." have absolutely no grounds in reality, no scope defined, no variables described, no context, no exact goals to be achieved except maybe to make hateful people like yourself, that happen to come to this site, to have "evidence" of what they want to believe.

Your succession of "facts" are nothing but a sequence of idiotic statements, and just make yourself look like some loser without a life, and not very intelligent.
Todays is Thanksgiving in the US.
written by Costinha, November 24, 2006
It should be renamed as Tankskilling instead!
Re: Todays is Thanksgiving in the US.
written by Brazilian expat, November 24, 2006
Nah. Thankskilling is what we have in Brazil. Did you see the last news?

http://www.jpjornal.com.br/news.php?news_id=39119

Quite simply, Brazil are miserable and not safe. Before talking about others we should first look at what's going on in the kitchen. As simple as that.
Re: The Article Is A Joke
written by Brazilian expat, November 24, 2006
The article is a joke. Brazil is doing smart by protecting itself with tariffs and importing less than it could. The United States did the same thing against England and Europe when it tried to build up its industrial base a century ago and Japan did the same thing decades ago.


The author of this statement is the joke here. The US are so open that they don't even have a trade surplus since 1975! (http://economics.about.com/od/...icit_h.htm). Quite interesting that in 1975 the american economy was doing really bad, hit hard by the oil crisis and now they are booming for more than 10 years eh? How could that be? Simple, economic growth caused by the fact that they use the cheapest products and technologies available, what makes them use the resources better than others and puts them all the time ahead of the competition. Trade surplus is not the answer. Free market is the answer.

They are not rich because of trade barriers, they are rich despite the trade barriers. Read Thomas Sowell on the job loss in industry caused by agriculture tariffs:
Their tenth element is crucial. We shouldn't ignore the secondary and long-term effects of an action. For example, trade restrictions on foreign sugar that result in higher prices for domestically produced sugar save jobs in our sugar industry. Because of those higher prices, major candy manufacturers such as Wrigley and Brach's moved to Canada and Mexico to take advantage of lower sugar prices. That resulted in more U.S. jobs lost than were saved by the sugar trade restrictions.


http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4841
"Brazilian expat" Is a definate proof
written by Costinha, November 24, 2006
... that evolution does go in reverse. An experiment in Artificial Stupidity!


hehehe
Re: "Brazilian expat" Is a definate proof
written by Brazilian expat, November 24, 2006
Just bold words. Show me your data then, let's see it.
To Brazilian expat
written by A brazilian, November 24, 2006
Quite simply, Brazil are miserable and not safe. Before talking about others we should first look at what's going on in the kitchen. As simple as that.


So I guess there aren't any murderers in the US? The prisons are all empty because there's nobody to be arrested right? Ah, I didn't hear, No?

What an idiot! What does it proof except that you are a moron?
Re: To Brazilian expat
written by Brazilian expat, November 24, 2006
Look who is talking: a guy who defends a system used in a country where 50 thousand people are murdered every year. He simply can't stand the fact that our country is overrun by unbearable problems and shrugs. 'Problems exist everywhere' he says, and that's enough for him to consider everyone equal. The 50 thousand murders per year don't mean anything. If a hypothetical remote island had 1 murder per year in a population of 10 million, then it's just like Brazil, as murders happen everywhere. That simply reveals the kind of mentality that's taken my fellow countrymen. A shame really.

It doesn't mean there aren't any murders in the US, as well as it doesn't mean there aren't murders in more peaceful countries like Japan, Austria or Germany. But they aren't even nearly as violent as Brazil, despite the fact that US they do have a population 1/3 bigger. Yes, they are a violent country with more than 10 thousand murders per year and certainly need some changes, but pretending they are as violent as Brazil is simply nonsense. And the brazilian population inside the overcrowded prisons is very large as well, and there aren't more only because there are not enough prisons and the justice is very kind to professional criminals, releasing crooks with several cases of crimes registered with the police while convicting mercilessly mothers who steal some milk to give to her hungry kids. Am I wrong?
Brazilian expat has a lesson to learn from an ancient time philosopher
written by A brazilian, November 24, 2006
Am I wrong?


Yes, you are. First of all are these few lines a "profound study of the violence in several countries in the world and its impact in the how people live"? So you basically put all your great knowledge, your omniscience, about all things in the world to work and reached this conclusion?? You took those numbers out of your ass, right?

Let's assume for a second that you are correct, HOW THAT SOLVE THE PROBLEM? I am sick of hearing international media and international morons vomitting propaganda about "how they are good" and "how Brazil sucks", if you like the place you live then fine, but BE HUMBLE JUST FOR SECOND AND DO LIKE SOCRATES, "ALL I KNOW IS THAT I KNOW NOTHING".

The problem is that this forum is attended by losers with nothing else to do.
Correcting... Re: The Article Is A Joke
written by Brazilian expat, November 24, 2006
They are not rich because of trade barriers, they are rich despite the trade barriers. Read Thomas Sowell on the job loss in industry caused by agriculture tariffs:


Just correcting my statement: the article cited is by Walter Williams, not Thomas Sowell...
RE: Brazilian Expat
written by e harmony, November 24, 2006

The article is a joke. Brazil is doing smart by protecting itself with tariffs and importing less than it could. The United States did the same thing against England and Europe when it tried to build up its industrial base a century ago and Japan did the same thing decades ago.



The author of this statement is the joke here. The US are so open that they don't even have a trade surplus since 1975! (http://economics.about.com/od/...icit_h.htm). Quite interesting that in 1975 the american economy was doing really bad, hit hard by the oil crisis and now they are booming for more than 10 years eh? How could that be? Simple, economic growth caused by the fact that they use the cheapest products and technologies available, what makes them use the resources better than others and puts them all the time ahead of the competition. Trade surplus is not the answer. Free market is the answer.

They are not rich because of trade barriers, they are rich despite the trade barriers. Read Thomas Sowell on the job loss in industry caused by agriculture tariffs:

Their tenth element is crucial. We shouldn't ignore the secondary and long-term effects of an action. For example, trade restrictions on foreign sugar that result in higher prices for domestically produced sugar save jobs in our sugar industry. Because of those higher prices, major candy manufacturers such as Wrigley and Brach's moved to Canada and Mexico to take advantage of lower sugar prices. That resulted in more U.S. jobs lost than were saved by the sugar trade restrictions.



http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4841


You say: "They are not rich because of trade barriers, they are rich despite the trade barriers. Read Thomas Sowell on the job loss in industry caused by agriculture tariffs." My response to that is that Brazil is rich also - very rich. Both Brazil and the United States have a very large GDP. The United States has the largest GDP and Brazil has the 9th largest GDP ion the world up from ranked number 10th a year or so ago. What you are measuring in increased wealth in the United States is her GDP but you are not measuring the average Americans quality of life rise of decline since the 1950's. In the 1950's most men in the U.S. could support their entire family off of one job - their job. And in 1975 the U.S. economy was doing, in that it was more effective for the average worker and citizen, then it is today - especially in regional terms. If you were to tell anyone in my Midwestern town that the job market and tax base in their city was worse in 1975 than it is today you would be laughed out the city.

U.S. corporations - helped by the Taft-Hartly Act - have been on an increasing move for decades to stimulate an economic environment wherein wages are negotiate at the principle of decline rather than rise. I mean by that CEO and CFO's offer this to city common councils and workers alike... "for us to stay in this city you must accept a pay reduction and in doing so we will only contract to remain in this city for 5 or 7 years and will renegotiate at the end of that time frame." It's no longer just hourly wage earners either, the college educated professional class is now seeing their jobs shipped over seas be it engineers or Information Technology. GM just announced recently it will enter the Chinese auto market (which in ten years time will take over the United States as the largest car market in the world) and will not hire American engineers but employ tens of thousands of Chinese engineers for much lower the cost than it would cost them to payroll U.S. educated engineers.

Be sure jobs will remain in the U.S. - especially at the low pay end service jobs - and there will always be rich people here and in fact over the next few decades the rich in the U.S. will just get richer. However, the average workers life in the U.S. will decline per material capacity as corporations ensure their rates of profit do not just remain high but keep increasing.

Brazilian protective tariffs are looking for longevity rather than rapid short term fixes. This will have the negative consequence of allowing them smaller but steady economic growth, but it will have the positive effect of allowing their economy to keep stability in global economic crashes. Argentina is ranked as a high income country along with the United States, Canada, Italy and Japan... that the Yakuza in Kobe, Japan with their hands in Japanese industries and Japanese banks could partly cause a global economic crash and be one of the causations of so many Argentinian workers being thrown out of jobs - whilst Brazil a middle income country and nation protecting itself from being over run by imports, shows in my mind the fragile nature of a nation state placing its economic stability on the dependence of the predilections of the Yakuza in Japan.
Re: Brazilian expat
written by Brazilian expat, November 24, 2006
Same doomsaying as ever. In the 80s, it was Japan that would overtake the american industry and reduce your country to a secondary role. Not only that didn't happen as you have grown out way too much more than them. If you read the same article by Walter Williams (not Thomas Sowell) you will notice how he says that higher-paying jobs are actually migrating to other countries because the US are protecting low-paying jobs in inefficient industries, like agriculture. If that observation is not sufficient to you, take a look at the performance history of the nations with the biggest trade barriers: Brazil and Latin America as a whole, the former Soviet Union and other communist countries and so on. Aren't they all poor? Take a look at France during Colbertism. Wasn't it poor? Ah, and next time you claim about taxes (I agree with you, they are too high), please remember that billions of dollars in taxes are being used to keep those low-productivity low-paying jobs in the US, ok? That's something that can take you to the abyss.

And how do you suppose brazilians will be able to make products at the level of the american and european ones when the country does not make nor import high tech computer parts or cars? How are they going to make a computer to compete against the most modern in the world when more than 2/3 of the population don't have access to the very expensive computers here? How do you suppose Brazil will be an IT power if programmers don't have access to computers? How do you suppose we will have the best engineers in the world when they have to pay twice as much for the latest 3D video board or graphical station? As you yourself stated it, Brazil are defending the low-paying low-productivity jobs much more than the US. And just like the US, but in a much larger scale, unemployment among college graduates in Brazil is far too high. Take a look at how many college graduates in Brazil seek jobs for more than one year. Take a look at how many engineers are fired by the age of 35 and take months or years to get a new job. The problem here is far worse. And if China gets those jobs while Brazil doesn't, that's their virtue, not ours.

You cited the fact that one man working alone was able to support a family in the 1950s. Why couldn't he do it now is something that I don't quite understand. Just because he and his wife now buy a new car every two years? Just because he and his wife bought a US$ 750,000 house much bigger than he needed and the payment is eating him alive? Just because he and his wife can't live without a boat or the latest computer or TV set? Well, Robert Kiyosaki has some things to say about all of that; Is the quality of life in a modern SUV, with modern TV sets and freedom to travel around the world smaller than that of the 1950s? Is the quality of life of someone working in an office or even at home smaller than that of a heavy industry worker? I definitely don't think so.

Last but not least, the 9th place that Brazil occupies doesn't mean much. Our GDP per capita is about 4 times as lower as the US under PPP and 10 times as lower under EPP. That's the most important.
Re: Brazilian expat has a lesson to learn from an ancient time philosopher
written by Brazilian expat, November 24, 2006
Let me ask you again. Am I wrong to say that there are lot of convicted criminals who are not in jail in Brazil? Am I wrong to say that justice uses to release thieves just the day after they have commited a crime while convicts to years of imprisonment people who stole food because they or their children were hungry? Am I wrong?
I love this mess
written by Tanaka, November 25, 2006
I returned to Brazil because is a messy country. Here, I can have a maid very gorgeous. I have a descent job and I really do not care about international economy. We have banana, manga, water melon, vatapas.... and a lot mulatas!!!!!!
I love Americans ....................................... and Brazilians
written by I love Americans............................ and Brazilians!, November 25, 2006
It's amazing but my best friend is a Brazlian married to an Americana with a couple children. I love her and her children, therefore her American husband.
Why do we need to be arguing about these stupidities such as globalisation: we all know the truth about it, and the truth is that neither the Americans or Brazlinas will be the beneficiary of this new world order other than the people who is orchestrating it. Find out yourselves.

Stop been foolish you all!!! Open your eyes; whilst we fight each other they are gaining terrain. It's a shame to know how it is evident neither the American system or our system works... go the website: thetruthseeker.co.uk and find out the reality about the world. BE CLEVER!!!
...
written by Nana, November 25, 2006
I don't think brazilian expat is wrong. Although society has to work as the ultimate judge and supervisor of the national state, the state is the institution who defends the society.

No we dont want a Mexican undereconomy with those several underskilled employees, jut to be able to compete in the world economy. We want full development, the society development, and for that matter a solid, independent and growing economy is important. Brazil's already kind of a highjacked country of the multinational companies. Unfortunately. So we need our government to defend its society.
I love Bush......Hitler......Stalin
written by Costinha, November 25, 2006
all the same ideology.
...
written by e harmony, November 25, 2006

I don't think brazilian expat is wrong. Although society has to work as the ultimate judge and supervisor of the national state, the state is the institution who defends the society.

No we dont want a Mexican undereconomy with those several underskilled employees, jut to be able to compete in the world economy. We want full development, the society development, and for that matter a solid, independent and growing economy is important. Brazil's already kind of a highjacked country of the multinational companies. Unfortunately. So we need our government to defend its society.


Brazilian Expat has a narrow view that does not reflect the reality of a world with over 190 something countries. His view point is a zero-sum game wherein one judges a nation state and people by the culture and economy of the United States.

I point out the large decline in tax base through out my city and most Midwestern cities since the 1970's and he responds back with he agrees "taxes are to high." That is not what "tax base" refers to. The tax base of any city is one indicator of its economic prosperity because the tax base corresponds to the average and total earnings of the citizens in a city. The more people earning high wages the more tax dollars a city collect and can upkeep its water works, parks, roads, police department, public school system, and et cetera.

Brazilian Expat points out corporate welfare in the U.S. for the agricultural sector (in certain states like Wisconsin even small family owned farms must be incorporated by law. Incorporation is a legal classification and should not be confused with the social ideas of large corporations such as Walmart or G.E.) as draining the U.S. economy and by implications hurting the average U.S. worker. While it is true the agricultural sector does receive billions a year from the U.S. Federal Government, it is disingenuous to imply a sector that only employs roughly 2% of the U.S. workforce is some how destroying jobs for the total U.S. employment sector, especially when the U.S. economy is switching more toward a literacy based economy (be that in verbal, written, or computer language).

So my post won't be to long I'll continue it in a post below this one.
...
written by e harmony, November 25, 2006
I don't think brazilian expat is wrong. Although society has to work as the ultimate judge and supervisor of the national state, the state is the institution who defends the society.

No we dont want a Mexican undereconomy with those several underskilled employees, jut to be able to compete in the world economy. We want full development, the society development, and for that matter a solid, independent and growing economy is important. Brazil's already kind of a highjacked country of the multinational companies. Unfortunately. So we need our government to defend its society.


Post continued...

This comment by Brazilian Expat, "You cited the fact that one man working alone was able to support a family in the 1950s. Why couldn't he do it now is something that I don't quite understand. Just because he and his wife now buy a new car every two years? Just because he and his wife bought a US$ 750,000 house much bigger than he needed and the payment is eating him alive? Just because he and his wife can't live without a boat or the latest computer or TV set?," reflects in my mind a person that has never stepped foot in any Eastern or Midwestern metropolitan in the United States. It reflects a personal experience of someone who visited the Phoenix, Arizona suburb of Scottsdale rather than central city Phoenix... or perhaps someone who visited downtown San Diego and believes that reflects life in Cleveland, Ohio or Newark, New Jersey. It's about one of the most ignoramus comments I ever read. My own city is a "second tier" city (meaning less than a million people but at least having as many as 500,000 people) and I only know one or two people that have homes worth that much - both cases they are people that married millionaires. High end condos in my town go for about $750,000 to a million and over. Many central city homes run from generally around $20,000 to $60,000 - the new builds in gentrification areas generally run about $100,000 to $150,000.

This bring up the point of decline in tax base and reflections of wages ans salaries in terms of categories of people. I use the word category to refer to people sharing common social life e.g. racial, gender, sexual orientation, regional, social class et cetera. How one derives at "mean income" and "median income" require different mathematical operation(s). Either way neither reflect accurately the truth of economical situations even as helpful as they may be to create a picture and identify certain problems. If the "mean income" or what is also called the "average income" (used in per capita figures as well) is derived from major gaps in income levels such as $75,000 annually and $12,000 annually predominating, then the "average will reflect neither of the those two predominating income groups" but the quotient derived from the sets and sum will come out to be something midway between those two extremes.

Service jobs are many but the ones most commonly created in traditional metros of the United States are service industry jobs like commercial cleaning (e.g. cleaning bathrooms). The United States Government is not "protecting" these jobs from going overseas because they are the kind of low end paying jobs that helps make the life of the professional class in the U.S. have an easier life as well commercial building upkeep requires constant cleaning and maintenance. A significant part of my cities population earns roughly $12,000 to $14,000 a year, there are many earning $60,000 or more in wages or salaries annually but the pool of those earning between $60,000 ans $12,000 a year is rapidly decreasing. $12,000 a year might be a lot in Brazil but it has little purchasing power (annually) in the United States. And purchasing power is what really matters.

Brazil has to be judged not just against the United States or even Western Europe but against the entire world composed of over 190 nation states. I mean though today's United States has more material pleasures than the "Roaring Twenties" of the United States had (e.g. we have micro waves, tv's, air-conditioning) the Roaring Twenties in the U.S. was not inhumane because it lacked some of our pleasures. Brazil is not inhumane because it's country - large sections of it - lack certain material pleasures more common in the U.S.. Is a car more important than loyal girlfriend that loves you? Some of this is a matter of perception and or modern values as to what constitutes "good" or "happiness."
...
written by e harmony, November 25, 2006
I don't think brazilian expat is wrong. Although society has to work as the ultimate judge and supervisor of the national state, the state is the institution who defends the society.

No we dont want a Mexican undereconomy with those several underskilled employees, jut to be able to compete in the world economy. We want full development, the society development, and for that matter a solid, independent and growing economy is important. Brazil's already kind of a highjacked country of the multinational companies. Unfortunately. So we need our government to defend its society.


Post continued...


Brazilian Expat's commentary on the auto industry reflects more early and mid 20th century capitalism than it does 21st century globalization. In a global economy, with modern technology reducing the obstacle of time (time traditionally has = cost for business) Ford no longer needs to have all elements of it's company (meaning physical buildings also) located in Detroit. Through the use of cell-phones and email time (which also = distance) is no longer the obstacle it once was. So corporations to escape prevailing U.S. wages, environmental laws, and labor laws in the U.S., can increase rates of profits by relocating segments of their companies to Mexico, Brazil, China, Vietnam or else where. Consequently Sao Paulo has won more in the automotive producing industry over the past couple or few decades than Detroit; Detroit has lost more than Sao Paulo.

Brazilian Expat is correct however that Brazil has to invest more in educating her people - and not just at a grade school level. In my own city 27% of the adult population of the city is "functionally illiterate" according to info I received from my college. "Functionally illiterate" basically means a person has some education (even at just the grade school level) but has trouble reading the daily newspaper, bus routes, and can not function productively on jobs requiring some level of literacy skills. This kind of situation will ultimately hurt any city in the 21st century (though in the 1950's a person could make decent wages in factories by just having a strong back - didn't matter usually if they were high school drop outs or couldn't read), be it a Brazilian city or a U.S. city.

Argentina is ranked as one of the world 50 or so nations that are "high income nations." That means Argentina shares this ranking with the United States and South Africa. Brazil is ranked as a "middle income nation" which means she shares this ranking with Mexico and Iraq.

Both Brazil and Iraq are listed as "middle income nations" yet some of Brazil's southern metropolitans look more advanced than my former gritty Midwestern industrial city in the U.S. Baghdad in comparison in no way gives off any impression in aesthetics, infastructure, or professional class as being even half-way as advanced as my former gritty Midwestern industrial city. So is Brazil closer toward the "high income nation" end of the spectrum or closer toward the "low income nation" spectrum within her place in the "middle income nations"?
Re:...
written by Brazilian expat, November 26, 2006
Ah, then you are worried about the income for the state. As you assumed something about me, then I can assume something about you. You are probably some city administrator, a politician, a public school teacher or some other kind of state worker, right? Well, wouldn't it be easier to make money come if you actually let the economy grow? Look at Florida: taxes are way lower, the economy is booming and well, it doesn't look like money is lacking in public treasuries despite the fact that some democrat administrations claim the contrary. You know, there is a big problem with money going to state. Public workers are generally rewarded by the ammount of money they spend, not the ammount of money they save, as happens in the business world. Quite simply, the public administrator who does not spend all the money available is cursed by all of his peers. Not only that leads to bad investments (that's why the governments are always making one bad investment after another), but that kind of mentality always leads to tax increases. Tax money is easy money. When the government needs money, it's just a matter of rising taxes. It doesn't really need to offer more services to the population, as tax paying is coercive. Everyone has to pay taxes. In the business world, however, when a company needs money, it has much fewer options: it must borrow the money from someone willing to do so, it must use its own savings or it must provide services or products that are better than the competition to other individuals. They simply can't force anyone to give them money, as the state can do.

Well, let's get back to your poor workers. I'm quite aware that not everywhere houses cost up to US$ 750,000. The US have an enormous variation of housing price ranges. In Kansas, one could buy a very nice house for US$ 200,000, in Tampa, Fl, for US$ 500,000 and US$ 1 million in CA. That however, doesn't mean that americans don't spend too much in things they don't really need and houses bigger than they really need. Even poor americans spend a lot of money in expensive cars, electronic gadgets and other things that middle class brazilians don't even dream about (http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba185.html). And you claim also that for those poor people making a living is very difficult. Well, first there is an obvious thing in any economy: poor people lives are always difficult when you compare them to the upper income classes, be them in the US, in Brazil, or in Cuba when you compare the common citizen against some of the crooks who run that island. But when you compare how the poor people live in different countries you see what countries have a better economic system. As such, I cannot say that poor people lives in the US is really difficult when you compare them against Brazil. Nor is it difficult when compared to the poors in 1950, when they didn't have gyms, comfortable and safe cars among other things for their consumption to the extent they have today.

You also defend the trade barriers and subsidies. Well, for the first, don't trade barriers protect local workers and industries? Don't they protect exactly those who produce products that cannot compete in price and/or quality against the imported products? As such, don't they have an effect of keeping prices higher than they would be if those barriers didn't exist? And who suffers more when prices get higher? The wealthy or the poor? For the second, don't subsidies require taxes to be paid? Don't they eat a percentage of the income of companies and individuals to keep the prices artificially lower? Doesn't that cause, as a chain effect, higher prices (because of the taxes) in the non-subsidized products? And who pays those subsidies? The companies that decide to produce in China or the local workers and industrials?

You also placed Argentina as a high-income nation. Please, could you explain to me how a high income nation has half of the population living below the poverty line? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1981054.stm)
continuing...
written by Brazilian expat, November 26, 2006
... just forgot to add that the stats of the 1st link (http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba185.html) are of 1994. There is another from 2002 here: http://www.heritage.org/Resear...bg1713.cfm

This is a report about a poor neighborhood in Baltimore: http://www.baltimoresun.com/bu...eadlines-1

Pictures are also good to ilustrate things. In this case, they are really worthy one thousand words. Take a look at the pics of the poor people in that neighborhood: http://www.baltimoresun.com/bu...eadlines-1

That's supposed to shock americans about the poverty in that forgotten neighborhood in Baltimore, but when I showed it to my brazilian friends they were shocked on how wealthy those poor people are. Quite simply, the cars, cell phones, house interiors and such would make them upper middle class citizens in Brazil, with the difference that upper middle class brazilians don't drive even used Cadillacs.

And well, again, if those poor people don't have problem to buy cars or gadgets but can hardly buy food because it's expensive, remember that brazilian food is much cheaper and is not exported to the US because of trade barriers and subsidies, ok? It's simple: in order to save a couple of jobs in the agriculture you are condemning all the americans to pay more for their food, what creates problems mainly for the poor.
correcting...
written by Brazilian expat, November 26, 2006
remember that brazilian food is much cheaper and is not exported to the US because of trade barriers and subsidies, ok?

I mean, it's exported to the US, but less than it could be.
Baltimore likes any place
written by Tanaka, November 26, 2006
I saw the pictures in Baltimore. Good pictures. I lived in North America for almost 12 Years. I saw a lot poverty in USA and also in Canada. Believe me, it is not so different from Brazil. In a slum in Rio de Janeiro you can have even a R-15 to protect yourself. Cable television, air condicionated, electricity, etc... and perhaps you do not need to pay one cent. Do you know what is the meaning of the word gato? a way to steal electricity from the state.
We are living the globalization, there are poverty to all places in the world. Education today is relative, you can give a good education to your daughter, send her to ballet class since she was toddle, she can go to a rep**able College and she may end working in a bar as table dancer. It is hard to get a job and keep it. I came back to Brazil and since that I am teaching in the Brazilian Universities. It is a difficult job, since I have pos secundary education from North America, it is very hard to adjust the system here but I am doing well. My wife that is not brazilian help me to prepare my classes. And I am struggling to pass in a public contest in a federal university. Once federal jobs are to the best friends and I can see from the editals that everything is a big game and in general when they open the public contest, the departament has the candidate that will get the open. I used to taught using power point because the student get a lot material in a short time and they also think that you do not know the subject. So, I decided to teach using the black board with a charcoal, this way I can show that I really know and they therefore get less material to study to the tests. I wanted to make some handouts and charge 10 Reals for the material, no way the department boss said to me. We can not make handouts and charge the students this in a federal university as substitute professor.
When, people talk that Brazil needs education, I laugh, people here need diploma, they do not want to learn, they do not care with new technology or development. Girls go to class to find boy friend and perhaps a husband. If they have an affair with the professor they can go to graduated program. So, they can get "As" if they have a gorgeous ass. And when they end the program, they may get in as Professor if they were warm with the former advisor. So, do not dare talk about real education, education for life, improvements etc... Let's play the game. I came here because I can live better in such messy country.
THE USA SUCKS!
written by CARL bARBOSA, November 26, 2006
America's Corrupt Legal System
Rigged courts, bribed judges, phony trials, extortion by lawyers, and over 2 million prisoners in the USA gulag


by Les Sachs

Global Research, August 30, 2005
Banned in America Blogspot


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The recent pattern of American violations of international law are ultimately based in the corruption of the USA domestic legal system. Phony USA courts are very dangerous even for travellers and visitors to America, who can easily wind up among the USA's more than 2 million prisoners, or lose all their family's possessions to corrupt American lawyers.

All world citizens should know how the corrupt USA legal system, is a danger to every traveller, visitor, and guest worker from overseas, and to every individual who takes the risky step of entering upon American territory. Just ask the overseas families of prisoners who were put to death inside the USA, with their embassies never even being informed that they were arrested - or the many foreign people serving hugely long prison terms in America, after they were jailed on flimsy tainted "evidence" from criminal snitches.

The reality is that the United States of America, which proclaims itself the "land of freedom", has the most dishonest, dangerous and crooked legal system of any developed nation. Legal corruption is covering America like a blanket.

The corruption of the USA legal system is well-known, but also well-hidden, by the news services of America's corporate-owned media. The US media companies are afraid both of reprisal, and of the social revolution that would come from exposing the truth. Here is what the US media companies know, but are afraid to tell you about American "justice".

Concentration camps with concrete walls

America has the largest prison gulag in the entire world - yes, right there in the USA, the self-proclaimed "land of freedom". The starting point for understanding anything about the USA, is to digest the fact that just this one country, the United States of America, has twenty-five percent of ALL of the prisoners in the entire world.

More than 2 million prisoners - more than 1 out of every 150 people in America - are behind bars in the American gulag. This is now the world's biggest system of what are effectively concentration camps, though most of these prisoners are behind masonry walls and inside prison buildings.

For minorities, the statistics are even more brutal. For example, the USA is now imprisoning about 1 out of every 36 people in its black population. American "justice" is especially focused on jailing young black males.

Quite amazingly, Americans and the American government, continually criticize the legal systems and so-called "political" legal proceedings in other countries such as China, Russia, and even Belgium among many other places. Yet, for example, the proportion of prisoners is 30 times higher in the USA than in China, even though China is a country regularly criticized and denounced by the USA government.

RE: Brazilian Expat
written by e harmony, November 27, 2006
Brazilian Expat,

In general the Brazilian poor have a much more austere life than the poor in the U.S. In fact some rural poor in Brazil may even starve to death. No one really starves to death in the U.S. minus a minority of children abused by cruel parents who will refuse to feed them or find food for them. However, recently for the first time in human history there are now more overweight people on earth than there are skinny people. The United States still ranks as the most overweight nation on earth but this medical problem is now being found all over including in Brazil.

You'll note this guy in the bottom of this article http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...APRVQ1.DTL that stands 5 foot 7 and more than likely has no more than a high school education - if that - weighs 231 pounds and also has a daughter that is overweight. Given his occupation it is reasonable to guess he lives in a Rio favela. Now I'm 5 foot 7 and weight far less than this guy and cannot imagine how one can consume so much to be overweight. My own college educated brother who has a masters degree, a wife that works full time plus goes to school, and they have three children, can only afford to eat once a day to feed his children twice a day (they also receive lunch at there public school). Neither one of us weighs 231 pounds. And let me inform us as you run your mouth about going to gyms, the only gym I attend is a boxing gym. I know three things: run, push-ups, and sit-ups. I run outside when it was 10 below zero with the wind chill. I've run in the hot summer across the street from police officers sealing off house and zone where a man is held up inside with a rifle threatening to shoot people, while his old lady is outside cursing everyone out for watching. I do not know this yuppie, cuddly, America you depict.

As for home prices years back I worked on a "new build" home that cost a quarter million dollars - that roughly $250,000. It was located in a upper class, predominately white suburb. This house was massive (by my standards at least) and had a master bedroom and a master bathroom with a round tub. It was being built by a doctor that was originally from India (I think he was a brain or heart surgeon or something). My boss informed me that if the guy told him he did not want black people working on his house he would have to pull me off the job. Now... I don't know what world you live in but people that earn $6.00 an hour vacuuming office floors don't buy or build quarter million dollar homes let alone three-quarter million dollar homes as you originally alluded to.

The 1950's? Please I can't even imagine honest conservative people in the U.S. espousing non-college educated Americans could sustain a better living today then those in the 1950's minus perhaps some of those conservative pricks at the Heritage Foundation think-tank that have propaganda to promote. Just the mere strength of organized labor in the U.S. in the 1950's compared to today ought to shed some light on that. The 1950's are considered the glory days of the "middle class" in my region. That's back when a young kid could drop out of high school and work in factory earning enough money to buy a home, new car, and raise a family of four kids *while his wife stays home.* You're sadly mistaken if you think that is a reality in todays United States - I don't care how large the GDP is or grows or any of Ronald Reagan's "trickle down" theory.



Continued below...
RE: Brazilian Expat
written by e harmony, November 27, 2006
Post continued...


Yes, protective tariffs protect the working class and the nations industries. Price might be higher but consequently people remain employed. It's related to the "circular flow of the economy" theory. If a person is employed they can spend money at the local store, which means the local store can buy more products and keep people employed, which consequently means the industries the store purchases products from remains in business and keeps others employed under her et cetera.

My college sociology book has a colored map off all the worlds nations ranking them as either "high income," "middle income," or "low income." It is a classification system accepted and used by the highly educated sociologist of the United States and Western Europe. South Africa is listed as a "high income nation" and South African shanty towns are far worse than Rio's favelas. Rio's favelas like Cleveland, Ohio's ghettos are "relative poverty" for the most part compared to South Africa's shanty towns that are often conditions of "absolute poverty" e.g. no running water, shacks use buckets for toilets, no electricity. The United States is ranked as a "high income nation" also even though Los Colonias in Texas, rivals poor conditions in Mexico, with generally no running water or electricity, 85% of them are legal residents and more than half U.S. citizens, it is home to approximately 700,000 people (to be expected 1 million by 2010) and did not even get a system to pump out water to them (which often doesn't even work now) till 1995.

So if you are mad because Rio de Janeiro's favelas can have a minority of dwellers that stand 5 foot 7 and weigh 231 lbs, probably helped by Lula's program for the poor, and protective tariffs can keep industry booming in Sao Paulo to give that city an economy twice as large as the entire national economy of Chile... instead of having thousands hundreds of poor people lining up to use one outdoor water tap to get water from as many of the poor do in the shanty towns of South Africa and India... by all means be angry about it.
RE: Brazilian Expat
written by Brazilian expat, November 28, 2006
You'll note this guy in the bottom of this article http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...APRVQ1.DTL that stands 5 foot 7 and more than likely has no more than a high school education - if that - weighs 231 pounds and also has a daughter that is overweight.


There are some fat people in brazilian slums, specially in the richest cities, like Rio. Food is cheap in Brazil, and unnecessarily more expensive in the US. In Brazil, specially among those who earn a little bit more than their peers and are able to buy cookies and other ultra caloric food. However, if you see any pics or any movies, you'll see that most slum people are small and skinny. Make no mistake, their consumption standards are far below those of the poor americans (perhaps only street vagabonds or the very few people living in shacks in a city like LA consume less than them) . In addition, percentage does matter. I don't know any study about this, but I bet the US has less than 1% of its population that consumes as little as the 50% poorer brazilians.

That's back when a young kid could drop out of high school and work in factory earning enough money to buy a home, new car, and raise a family of four kids *while his wife stays home.


That's interesting. Well, I'm aware that Midwest did not follow the growth of other regions, but I know one guy in Florida who did exactly that which you cited, except for the fact that he was a dropout of a brazilian high school, he didn't work in a factory but in basic cleaning and construction services and supported a family that includes his father, his mother and his sister with two kids. He spent two years in US until he got the green card and he managed to bring all of his family to live in the US under his expenses by the end of the 3rd year. He just did not buy his quarter-million house before because his credit was bad. And make no mistake, he worked a lot (10-14 hour a day, a little bit more than your factory workers by the 1950s) until he could start his own business. It's interesting, but he simply doesn't understand how american-born people are so lazy nowadays and don't get well off in a country like this, given the fact that americans don't have as little rights as he has.

Yes, protective tariffs protect the working class and the nations industries. Price might be higher but consequently people remain employed.


Tell me one country where that has worked fine. Tell me why there is so much unemployment in Brazil despite the huge trade barriers, specially among well-educated workers. If trade barriers are the solution, then why did Hong Kong, the most open economy to date (until it joined China again), sustained an unemployment level below 2% from the early 1970s to the late 1990s, despite having passed from a primary economy to an industrial economy and then to a services economy during that time. Tell me why did England grow so much during the early XIX century despite the fact that most of the food consumed was imported.

My college sociology book has a colored map off all the worlds nations ranking them as either "high income," "middle income," or "low income." It is a classification system accepted and used by the highly educated sociologist of the United States and Western Europe.


You mean marxists then? Well, 10 minutes car trip accross Buenos Aires would show you how that book is just plain wrong. Anyway, which book is that? I need an example to show the world how manipulative some "social science men" are nowadays.

protective tariffs can keep industry booming in Sao Paulo


That just show you how misinformed you are. There is no boom in São Paulo. Since long São Paulo has been losing factories to other places in Brazil. And now even poorer semi-industrial states like Paraná are losing the factories, which are opening elsewhere: in China, India, South Korea, etc. If there really was a boom in São Paulo, there would be no need for me to have moved from there in the first place.
do not worry
written by Tanaka, November 28, 2006
Even so, it is nice to live in such messy country. We have banana.
RE: Brazilian Expat
written by e harmony, November 29, 2006
Brazilian Expat,

In the United States a person can support a family off of a construction job paying approximately $15 and hour and more (depending on city and region), so I have no doubt your friend could support his family off of his construction work in Florida plus with another job. However, what you fail to realize is everyone can not get in employed in those positions. And as far as Americans being lazy workers of the world please do not make me laugh. The United States work culture has never been one of "laziness." Simple fact is most first generation immigrants to the United States have always lived in poverty - and that remains true to this day. So this fantastical tale you wish to evoke that immigrants from Brazil or Mexico come to this country today and most of them within a few years find they are living in streets paved of gold and houses built of marble is just a simple fallacy. In fact more Puerto Ricans return to Puerto Rico annually than come to the United States citing discrimination and lack of opportunity as the number one reason. I can't tell you how many first generation Mexicans toil away in poverty in the U.S. in hopes that their children will have a better future than them. But the Mexican experience - with its triumphs, struggles, and failures - is not unlike the first generation Irish, Italian, German, Slavic, or Eastern European Jews that came to this country. Most of them lived in poverty their entire lives - it took a generation or more for those groups to arise out of U.S. poverty.

As for Sao Paulo... it is a booming industrial giant and cosmpolitan city. It has more helicopter taxis than any city on earth. Discovery Channel Atlas just did a 2006 show on Brazil giving it the pomp and emotional tale of individuals transformations as is usually given to the United States. They show almost moved tears in me at the end. It followed a number of people in Brazil including a young mixed-race woman who is a helicopter taxi pilot that shuttles high paid executives from one sky scraper to the next. I believe the show stated Sao Paulo has either 100 helicopter lift off per hour or per day. Either way Sao Paulo is a city with a huge economy and massive wealth it is in every way a city that epitomizes capitalism. Discovery channel also followed a mixed-race cowboy in Brazil, and according to the show Brazil has more cowboys than any nation on earth. -- Listen Brazilians have every right to be proud of Brazil and even reckon pride in the fast pace business city of Sao Paulo.

As for the tariff issues I already told you it worked for nations like the Japan and the United States when they were trying to improve their industries. England is a nation that colonized numerous lands and made it law that those nations had to sell their raw goods to them (at the price England set) and England would turn around and sell those products turned into finished products for very high prices back to her colonized lands - it was not a "free market" she operated.

As for the sociology book it is authored by John J. Macionis and no he is not a Marxist - at least not by the impression he gives from some of his commentary of communism. The book states "Middle income countries have a per capita income of between $2,500 and $10,000, roughly the median for the worlds nations. Two-thirds of the people in middle-income countries live in cities, and industrial jobs are common. The remaining one-third of people live in rural areas, where most are poor and lack access to schools, medical care, adequate housing, and even safe drinking water." Basically nations that have per capita incomes of $10,000 and over are considered "high income nations."

Do I place much stock in the current rankings of "high income nations" to middle and "low income nations"? No not really. I suppose their are some objectives truths one can find in the variables but I tend to believe the whole thing is most subjective than purely objective and 100% truth. The reason I first pointed out to you that the United States and Argentina and Chile share the rank of "high income nation" and that Brazil and Iraq share the rank of "middle income nations" is to illustrate to you how these classifications (and even the more outdated, archaic, and more inaccurate terms "first world" vs second and "third world) do not give accurate impressions of close to 200 something nations on the earth. You are quick to point out the differences between Argentina and the United States, but slow and or silent to point out the difference between Brazil and Iraq. Reason being is because you have biased agenda that would prefer to give the impression Baghdad as a city is more cosmopolitan, advanced, and owner of more booming industrial and professional life than Sao Paulo city. Just as you would prefer an image of Brazil looking as sophisticated or less sophisticated than Iraq as a nation and people.
...
written by hmm, November 29, 2006
"I saw a lot poverty in USA and also in CANANA (?). Believe me, it is not so different from Brazil."

Canada, not so dif. than Brazil? There are more people living in favelas in Brasil, than there are Canadenses. Mas sim, temos bananas.
Re:
written by Brazilian Expat, November 30, 2006
And as far as Americans being lazy workers of the world please do not make me laugh

but he simply doesn't understand how 'some' american-born people are so lazy nowadays and don't get well off in a country like this

Indeed. I was in a hurry and, among some other spelling errors, I forgot to write the word 'some', which changed the sense of the sentence. My bad. As a matter of fact, I'm a great admirer of the american culture. Most americans are hard-working people and that's why the country is so rich. What he pointed out, and I have noticed myself, is that most poor americans don't have good values towards work, with some exceptions. From my own experience, poor americans tend to be terribly lazy and uneducated. They are hard to work with. This guy who I cited shares the same vision. And there are plenty of opportunities, not only in the construction industry, paying more than US$ 6/hour for anyone who has a little bit of enthusiasm in learning and working hard.

As for the rest of the first paragraph, it's not a fantasy tale. Interview the brazilian commnity in the US and you'll see it. I'm not saying they are rich, but their life standards are much above those in their home countries. Most of them advance at least to lower middle class and some even get rich in a way they couldn't in their home countries. Even those mexicans, with whom you are so worried about. They should simply compare to the life standards back in Mexico, not in the US.

Please, don't make it general because some puerto ricans get back to their country and some mexicans are stuck in poverty. Those people are exceptions.

As for Sao Paulo... it is a booming industrial giant and cosmpolitan city. It has more helicopter taxis than any city on earth. Discovery Channel Atlas just did a 2006 show on Brazil giving it the pomp and emotional tale of individuals transformations as is usually given to the United States. They show almost moved tears in me at the end. It followed a number of people in Brazil including a young mixed-race woman who is a helicopter taxi pilot that shuttles high paid executives from one sky scraper to the next. I believe the show stated Sao Paulo has either 100 helicopter lift off per hour or per day. Either way Sao Paulo is a city with a huge economy and massive wealth it is in every way a city that epitomizes capitalism. Discovery channel also followed a mixed-race cowboy in Brazil, and according to the show Brazil has more cowboys than any nation on earth. -- Listen Brazilians have every right to be proud of Brazil and even reckon pride in the fast pace business city of Sao Paulo.


We need to define things here: there is no boom in São Paulo anymore. The economy of the city is growing too slow, if not shrinking. As to the latter, you are right, there is a lot of wealth there yet, though not to the extent that existed in the past. And as for the helicopters, that doesn't mean São Paulo is richer than, or as rich as New York, Chicago or Los Angeles. You should visit the city to notice how it's today a sea of poverty with a few islands of wealth within. And this particularity of the city is why there are so many helicopters in São Paulo. First, the main company offices for Brazil and even the whole South America are concentrated in São Paulo, in a way hardly seen anywhere else in the world; second, the traffic in the city is a mess and it's not rare to take 2 hours to make some less than 10 mile trips. It's even worse when there is rain; third, the city is too violent and being in the traffic increases the risk of one suffering violence. As such, big companies, that have more money to spend, invest in helicopters in order to make their executives go from one place to the other in a much faster and safer way. American companies usually don't invest so much in that kind of things because the traffic problems and violence in the cities are much smaller than in São Paulo, despite the fact that their incomes and profits are usually much higher.
continuing...
written by Brazilian Expat, November 30, 2006
As for the tariff issues I already told you it worked for nations like the Japan and the United States when they were trying to improve their industries. England is a nation that colonized numerous lands and made it law that those nations had to sell their raw goods to them (at the price England set) and England would turn around and sell those products turned into finished products for very high prices back to her colonized lands - it was not a "free market" she operated.

No. Read back to the Toyotist times: Japan was trying to enter the american market for cars, however having high tariffs to protect the country from the american cars imports. The american government decided that they would impose the same tariffs on japanese cars as the japanese were putting in the american cars. The japanese reduced those tariffs to zero and the rest of the story you probably know too well. You must be from Flint or Detroit, right?

As for England, in the late XVIII and early XIX century, the market was really open to imports from colonies. That led many farmers to leave their businesses back then. Might not have been free market, but England was importing cheaper products anyway.

As for the sociology book it is authored by John J. Macionis and no he is not a Marxist - at least not by the impression he gives from some of his commentary of communism. The book states "Middle income countries have a per capita income of between $2,500 and $10,000, roughly the median for the worlds nations. Two-thirds of the people in middle-income countries live in cities, and industrial jobs are common. The remaining one-third of people live in rural areas, where most are poor and lack access to schools, medical care, adequate housing, and even safe drinking water." Basically nations that have per capita incomes of $10,000 and over are considered "high income nations."


Ah, he takes the PPP based GDP per capita. I had the impression you were taking him very seriously, then I was wrong about that.

Anyway, US$ 10,000 of is a too kind value, as the US have over 4 times that value as per capita. PPP is good to know about cost of living, yet there are also some problems, like not considering quality differences among products. As such, if a T-shirt costs US$ 40 in the US, but it's a Nike branded one, very durable and well-made, and a T-shirt costs US$ 10 in Brazil with a crappy material, that tends to be equalized by PPP. As such, people in the developing countries still have harder times in finding quality products and services, much more than the people from the developed world. That applies to Argentina and Brazil in comparison to the US.

All of that doesn't mean to be subjective also. It's a very objective and critical approach to reading stats. Notice that the author puts Argentina together to the United States in GDP per capita, but Argentina has a per capita of US$ 13,700 while the US has it above US$ 40,000, about 3 times as high. As such, the data in your sociology book is right, but I would say the interpretation of the author is wrong (based on what you have told me). I would prefer to put nation below US$ 10,000 as low income, between US$ 10,000 and US$ 20,000 as middle income and the rest as high income. Even so, the US would have over 2 times the minimum value for high income.

Reason being is because you have biased agenda that would prefer to give the impression Baghdad as a city is more cosmopolitan, advanced, and owner of more booming industrial and professional life than Sao Paulo city. Just as you would prefer an image of Brazil looking as sophisticated or less sophisticated than Iraq as a nation and people.

I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand that. As far as I got it, you're likely saying that I'm just bashing Brazil. No, I'm not. I'm being objective. Baghdad is not as sophisticate or cosmopolitan as São Paulo, AFAIK. I wouldn't say so. As for being biased, you'll have to prove it. I forwarded you some stats from Heritage Foundation and you said they were some guys who needed to develop propaganda. I bring about some objective facts and you say I'm biased. This way it becomes very difficult. And you simply look to give emphasis on details. The US are a rich country, but you focus your attention to the bottom 5% or so of poorest americans. Similarly, Brazil and Argentina have a lot of poverty with some islands of wealth, and you give more emphasis to those 5% or so of richest brazilians and argentinians. Pay attention, that's what you're doing.

BTW, I would like to see trade barriers lifted for food in the US. In my own experience, the meat is generally not as soft as the brazilian one, and when it is, it's very expensive. Also, tomatoes and other vegetables are too expensive. That gives me a weird feeling in a so wealthy country. Shouldn't be so, really.
RE: Brazilian Expat
written by e harmony, November 30, 2006
Indeed. I was in a hurry and, among some other spelling errors, I forgot to write the word 'some', which changed the sense of the sentence. My bad. As a matter of fact, I'm a great admirer of the american culture. Most americans are hard-working people and that's why the country is so rich. What he pointed out, and I have noticed myself, is that most poor americans don't have good values towards work, with some exceptions. From my own experience, poor americans tend to be terribly lazy and uneducated. They are hard to work with. This guy who I cited shares the same vision. And there are plenty of opportunities, not only in the construction industry, paying more than US$ 6/hour for anyone who has a little bit of enthusiasm in learning and working hard.

As for the rest of the first paragraph, it's not a fantasy tale. Interview the brazilian commnity in the US and you'll see it. I'm not saying they are rich, but their life standards are much above those in their home countries. Most of them advance at least to lower middle class and some even get rich in a way they couldn't in their home countries. Even those mexicans, with whom you are so worried about. They should simply compare to the life standards back in Mexico, not in the US.

Please, don't make it general because some puerto ricans get back to their country and some mexicans are stuck in poverty. Those people are exceptions.


I'm not going to address all your commentary in both posts but I will address the commentary I have quoted above.

First, I have no doubt many a number of immigrants come to the United States and within a few years or the span of a decade or more in their lives in the country increase their quality of life through upward mobility by hard work and good fortune. But for those that come to this country with any money or especially without college education they are the minorities within that immigration population.

Secondly, your observation about a culture of poverty (e.g. blame and poor work ethics) is not something that is only true in the U.S. it is true in Latin America and Brazil as well. In fact a sociologist whose name I can't remember right now, went to Latin America and did a study (fieldwork) of the poor people in Latin America, his work concluded and partially contributed to the concept of poor people having a "culture of poverty." I mean one can read articles advocating for the poor in Brazilian favelas that they the reason many kids don't go to school in favelas is because their parents can't afford pencils. Yet a quick glance at nat.org on his favela photos will show favelas homes with televisions, and even some favela homes with the furnishings of lower middle class Americans (stereos and all). Poor people understand themselves in relations to the greater wealth around them - this breaks spirits and it also builds blame and or "cultures of poverty."

Thirdly, there is no exception of Puerto Ricans returning to Puerto Rico - it is by numerical statistical fact more the rule. Annually more return than come stating discrimination and lack of opportunity as their main reason. I'm actually reading a book now about the life of Jesus "El Matador" Chevez who became light weight boxing champ in the U.S.. He had a tough road in life, joined a gang, went to prison in the U.S. (were he battled) and was deported to Mexico more than once. The story of his fathers experience coming to the U.S. is one of sheer struggle and inspiration. His fathers experience illegaly was so hard he returned a number of times, and his later time experience in Chicago almost drove him back to Mexico, in his own words he said, "this is no way to live." The name of the book if you are ever interested in reading it is "Standing Eight."

Lastly, the construction industry is in need of people, but this is a complicated situation, reason being because of the wide spread practice of employing cheaper labor of Mexican immigrants as well out-right discrimination. There is nothing you can pontificate on the construction industry to me as I worked in it for some years. Starting off at the amazing huge Hollywood level wage of $5.00 and hour with nada benefits or health insurance, spraying "dryfall" on scaffolding with no respirator for hours a day. Over the years - hell hard fought through the blatant bigotry - I worked my way up to $14.00 an hour. I was getting paid $5.00 in the early to mid 1990's after all the pomp and glitter of military service in one of this nation foreign wars, so you can spare me the tales of streets paved in gold, every pimp on every side of the ocean sales tales of riches just waiting to be tripped over. I hear every woman in Brazil has a huge round bunda... I suppose that is true too?

Oh... and Sao Paulo is a huge economy the numbers of people in poverty has nothing to do with it. Welcome to capitalism.
To e harmony
written by A brazilian, November 30, 2006
Just as you would prefer an image of Brazil looking as sophisticated or less sophisticated than Iraq as a nation and people.


Are you american? You seem to know about Brazil way more than the average american would.

A comment, I am sure what americans are fed with to get this "all beautiful" view of the US and "all bad" view of everything else. I can tell you that brazilians are fed with negativity 24h a day.

When I went to the United States I got shocked with the immigrants working there. They do all kinds of lowly jobs, jobs that they wouldn't do in their home countries, and can't even speak english. Some americans complain about "illegals" but why the police doesn't just check all those people, I am sure they would find plenty of illegals there easily!

BTW, calling that "life standards that are much above" that of Brazil is an insult. It will be only above the poorest of the population, because it would be difficult to get any lower than that, but middle class? No way. No way that cleaning toilets in the US is better than an educated job in Brazil. It might be better for some uneducated and hopeless person, that doesn't have any other way of making a living except by using brute force (not the brain).

The eletronics stuff in the US is cheaper, I think we can thank Brazil taxes for that, and the "Brazilian expat" comments seems to consider "gadgets" as a demonstration of wealth. Even in Brazil people in a favela can have many kinds of gadgets! Assuming that electronics are cheaper there, what's so special about poor people with iPods and obsolete computers?
RE: A brazilian
written by e harmony, November 30, 2006
Are you american? You seem to know about Brazil way more than the average american would.

A comment, I am sure what americans are fed with to get this "all beautiful" view of the US and "all bad" view of everything else. I can tell you that brazilians are fed with negativity 24h a day.

When I went to the United States I got shocked with the immigrants working there. They do all kinds of lowly jobs, jobs that they wouldn't do in their home countries, and can't even speak english. Some americans complain about "illegals" but why the police doesn't just check all those people, I am sure they would find plenty of illegals there easily!

BTW, calling that "life standards that are much above" that of Brazil is an insult. It will be only above the poorest of the population, because it would be difficult to get any lower than that, but middle class? No way. No way that cleaning toilets in the US is better than an educated job in Brazil. It might be better for some uneducated and hopeless person, that doesn't have any other way of making a living except by using brute force (not the brain).

The eletronics stuff in the US is cheaper, I think we can thank Brazil taxes for that, and the "Brazilian expat" comments seems to consider "gadgets" as a demonstration of wealth. Even in Brazil people in a favela can have many kinds of gadgets! Assuming that electronics are cheaper there, what's so special about poor people with iPods and obsolete computers?


Yeah I'm American.

People in the United States, no matter if they are liberal or conservative voters, generally are trained to believe that only in the United States can one receive and education and eventually obtain large amounts of wealth. Generally Americans believe U.S. homeless people have a higher quality of life than the middle class in every other nation on earth. This is the way they are taught to believe, while at the same time over looking their own desire to receive Social Security benefits in their retirement, they believe they have single handedly brought about their own fortune and economic stability likely that of 18th century frontiersmen in the "New World." It is "freedom" and their own brute "will" by which they believe their economic security and social ranking is recovered. They believe the U.S. Government has never day one had a hand in this. Of course they expect "time and half" for anything over 40 hours a week if they are wage earners (as opposed to the professional class). And if they are millionaire stock holders in GM auto they expect the U.S. Government to financially bail their company out if it goes into economic woes. And as we know the U.S. Government had nothing at all to do with the creation and development of the internet [rolls eyes]. Better yet the gun battles of the Homestead strikes never happened and children never labored in U.S. factories until the 1930's.

My eyes first began to open - ironically - when I went overseas in the Middle East. Entering Dubai and Abu Dabi (sp?) I was extremely surprised to find those cities were cleaner, newer, and more gleaming than my midwestern city. What astonished me more was that almost every Arab I saw driving drove a BMW or Mercedes. I began to realize then that the Paul Bunyon tales I had been breed on as a child to believe American middle class towered in luxury above all men on earth was a far fetched lie.

Without a doubt the poor in Brazil's favelas - and through out Latin America - live in great poverty. And most poverty in the U.S. does not go as as steep and harsh as it does for millions of Brazilians. So in no way do I wish to make light of their sorrows and daily triumphs to survive. Having said that, the fact is, the U.S. immigration policy has always been one of seeking poor immigrants from other countries to fill its demands for labor. When that demand for cheap labor declines - such as it did in the 1950's - the U.S. advertises less (yes the U.S. has advertised just like commercial companies and U.S. military search for recruits) and places quotas and restrictions on immigration into the U.S.

If democracy and capitalism are established on some level of the principles of meritocracy instead of aristocracy, then it is interesting to reflect on the fact that President Bush is a product of virtual aristocracy (even entering Ivy League university by matter of his birth and family name) and President Lula rose from out of abject poverty and was once a peanut seller and shoe shine boy.

Brazil does have problems, many problems but she a country and people of some impressive qualities. And Brazilians have every right to be proud of their accomplishments, as individuals, as a people, and as a nation.


Signed,

From a gringo in the north
Re
written by Brazilian Expat, December 03, 2006
Looks like comments were out for some time... let's get to the answer:

Secondly, your observation about a culture of poverty (e.g. blame and poor work ethics) is not something that is only true in the U.S. it is true in

Latin America and Brazil as well. In fact a sociologist whose name I can't remember right now, went to Latin America and did a study (fieldwork) of the poor

people in Latin America, his work concluded and partially contributed to the concept of poor people having a "culture of poverty." I mean one can read

articles advocating for the poor in Brazilian favelas that they the reason many kids don't go to school in favelas is because their parents can't afford

pencils. Yet a quick glance at nat.org on his favela photos will show favelas homes with televisions, and even some favela homes with the furnishings of

lower middle class Americans (stereos and all). Poor people understand themselves in relations to the greater wealth around them - this breaks spirits and it

also builds blame and or "cultures of poverty."


Now there is something that I strongly agree. It's not by chance that Latin America is a backwards region. People around here tend to have very low ethics

towards work. Also, I would add that there is not a culture of responsability, something evident by the number of crimes that go unpunished. I strongly agree

with you and that sociologist on that subject and I would add even more: there is also a culture of poverty among the middle classes and even among the

riches. The belief that the state should care about one's own business and act as a father to all is common from the bottom to the top, with a few

exceptions. It's not unsurprisingly that Lula won again in such an environment.

Anyway, there is also a little bit more of complexity. This business-unfriendly environment in Brazil keeps some very hard working people in poverty while

maintains useless rich bastards in high positions because of their political connections. As such, those things are more mixed in Brazil, but you remain

correct however. That kind of thing is very uncommon in America. It's harder to find hard poor hard working people and useless rich bastards with good jobs

in America than in Latin America.

Thirdly, there is no exception of Puerto Ricans returning to Puerto Rico - it is by numerical statistical fact more the rule. Annually more return

than come stating discrimination and lack of opportunity as their main reason. I'm actually reading a book now about the life of Jesus "El Matador" Chevez

who became light weight boxing champ in the U.S.. He had a tough road in life, joined a gang, went to prison in the U.S. (were he battled) and was deported

to Mexico more than once. The story of his fathers experience coming to the U.S. is one of sheer struggle and inspiration. His fathers experience illegaly

was so hard he returned a number of times, and his later time experience in Chicago almost drove him back to Mexico, in his own words he said, "this is no

way to live." The name of the book if you are ever interested in reading it is "Standing Eight."


But Puerto Rico life standards are much above that of Mexico or Brazil. They are used to consume more and to be better treated. They can sacrifice a little

bit of consumption standards in order to live in a more receptive place. Now for brazilians or mexicans, who are used to receive poor treatment from

authorities and employers, being discriminated in their own countries, and are used to consume very little, that reality is not that harsh.
continuing...
written by Brazilian Expat, December 03, 2006

Lastly, the construction industry is in need of people, but this is a complicated situation, reason being because of the wide spread practice of

employing cheaper labor of Mexican immigrants as well out-right discrimination. There is nothing you can pontificate on the construction industry to me as I

worked in it for some years. Starting off at the amazing huge Hollywood level wage of $5.00 and hour with nada benefits or health insurance, spraying

"dryfall" on scaffolding with no respirator for hours a day. Over the years - hell hard fought through the blatant bigotry - I worked my way up to $14.00 an

hour. I was getting paid $5.00 in the early to mid 1990's after all the pomp and glitter of military service in one of this nation foreign wars, so you can

spare me the tales of streets paved in gold, every pimp on every side of the ocean sales tales of riches just waiting to be tripped over. I hear every woman

in Brazil has a huge round bunda... I suppose that is true too?


You are talking about streets paved of gold here. And also, you are an example of how one can get up the ladder in the US. Compare to your mexican or

brazilian counterparts working in construction industry and check just how many get stuck in poverty. As for a huge round bunda, that's not true, just as

it's not true that everyone gets rich in America. There are just better life standards.

To A Brazilian:
The eletronics stuff in the US is cheaper, I think we can thank Brazil taxes for that, and the "Brazilian expat" comments seems to

consider "gadgets" as a demonstration of wealth. Even in Brazil people in a favela can have many kinds of gadgets! Assuming that electronics are cheaper

there, what's so special about poor people with iPods and obsolete computers?


Not only electronic gadgets, but high tech products as a general. The question is, how can a government say a laptop or a 3D video board are superfluous when

you have salesmen needing to move around with a portable computer or engineers needing to use graphical applications? How can a government make a car cost 3

times more here than in the US, if there are people needing bigger cars to transport people or cargo? (not to mention that those big american cars are far

safer as well, and the price of the cars in Brazil causes that lot of old unsafe cars to be in our streets as well). A DJ or music producer might need an

iPod to start working while on transit to his workplace, you never know. That without mentioning the obvious necessary equipments, such as heavy machinery

for industry or surgical equipment, for example. Quite simply, one cannot say in today's world what's superfluous or not. Human beings are not only about

basic needs. As such, governments should not have the right to dictate what one can consume or not. As we gave them the power to do so, we see those weird

thins, like the american government making food more expensive for everyone (what makes the lives of the poor harder) in order to protect inefficient farmers

and the brazilian government putting 30% of tax on rice or sugar.
To Brazilian Expat
written by A brazilian, December 04, 2006
Not only electronic gadgets, but high tech products as a general...


Ok, now you are mixing a bunch of stuff. We were talking about poor people with gadgets. I know some poor people and some others lower middle class that have lots of eletronics stuff (TVs, stereos, computers with internet, cable TV, etc). I agree that the proportion of people with such stuff in the US is bigger simply because the prices are lower.

But what does it have to do with the prices of machinery to be used in businesses?
Re: To Brazilian Expat
written by Brazilian expat, December 04, 2006
Education and productivity. The more contact someone has with technology, the most he can learn from that new technology and think about new products and uses for it. And the most modern and easy to use his gadget is, the more productive he can be. As an example, I could tell you that Java-powered cell phones are very expensive and are restricted to a minority of cell phone users in Brazil today, while they are majority in other places in the world for quite some time now, and easily affordable. The question is: how are you supposed to have programmers for cell-phone based applications if they are expensive and restricted to a minority of the population? How many students in brazilian universities don't have money to afford a single Java-powered cell phone? They not only can't study that, as many won't even see any use for it as those phones are rare. This is one aspect on why the country is so backwards in technology matters.

Brazil have also a shortage of 3D programmers. Everything that brazilian programmers produce on games or 3D applications looks outdated, quite simply. Those people are few and underskilled. Then, I ask you again: how are you supposed to have engineers designing cutting-edge 3D applications when they can barely afford a modern GeForce card?

Also, cars are very expensive in Brazil, and most of the cars in the streets are old crap. Just look at the numbers of sold cars in 1997 and in 2005 and you'll notice the decline on sales. Having people owning old cars, mechanics dealing with old cars makes the people (the market) aim towards designing products for old cars. What's the point on teaching a mechanical engineer about electronic-controlled mechanical devices for auto industry when those things are too expensive and restricted to a minority of the population?

Another example on productivity is on the use of laptops: while they are common and affordable in other parts of the world, one is not likely to buy a top laptop for less than US$ 4,000 in Brazil. Imagine how many problems could be solved remotely, how much info could be immediately retrieved while on transit, how many people could be working at home avoiding traffic jams and spending fuel. All of that is happening in the developed world, but as the brazilian government makes it difficult for its citizens to get the latest technology, that's happening slower here. In the competitive global market, being outdated means a lot, quite simply.

I could go on all day, but I bet you can see the effects of being out of high tech market. Understand?
Brazilian Expat is delusional
written by A brazilian, December 04, 2006
As an example, I could tell you that Java-powered cell phones are very expensive and are restricted to a minority of cell phone users in Brazil today, while they are majority in other places in the world for quite some time now, and easily affordable


Not really, cell phones are very cheap around here. The companies subside a lot of the price and make money in other ways. I would say that cell phones in Brazil are VERY cheap in comparison to everything else.

The question is: how are you supposed to have programmers for cell-phone based applications if they are expensive and restricted to a minority of the population? How many students in brazilian universities don't have money to afford a single Java-powered cell phone? They not only can't study that, as many won't even see any use for it as those phones are rare. This is one aspect on why the country is so backwards in technology matters.


Are programmers supposed to be well paid and to able to afford at least a decent computer!? Seriously, don't make things up.

You chose a real bad example, because:

1- Brazil is well known world leader in Java development;
2- Cell phones are dirty cheap around here;

Brazil have also a shortage of 3D programmers. Everything that brazilian programmers produce on games or 3D applications looks outdated, quite simply. Those people are few and underskilled. Then, I ask you again: how are you supposed to have engineers designing cutting-edge 3D applications when they can barely afford a modern GeForce card?


Nonsense! Listen to yourself, you are out of your mind! A decent video board costs around R$ 200, a month salary of a junior programmer (i.e. just came out of college) won't be less than R$ 3000,00. What nonsense is that you are talking about!?

If the person really really really needs the video board that was released last week and costs US$ 1500,00, I assume they have the skill to use it and the money. Who else would need it?

What's the point on teaching a mechanical engineer about electronic-controlled mechanical devices for auto industry when those things are too expensive and restricted to a minority of the population?


I thought Mechanical Engineers worked on projects that required such skill. As a matter of fact, any engineering job will work in developing technology, not fixing old cars.

Imagine how many problems could be solved remotely, how much info could be immediately retrieved while on transit, how many people could be working at home avoiding traffic jams and spending fuel.


Nonsense. Laptops costs much but nothing prevents people from working from their desktops from home.

I could go on all day, but I bet you can see the effects of being out of high tech market. Understand?


Not really. I don't think any of your examples are a real problem to technology development, because you don't need the very latest in order to learn, and if you already know it then it implies that you have a job and can afford the professional stuff.

What kid learns how to drive in a Ferrari? Do you need a Ferrari to be able to "on par with the developed world"? A person can learn how to drive in a 10 years old piece of junk or a luxury car, none of that will determine if the person will be a good or a bad driver.

As a matter of fact I would say that for starters is better to have to mid-level or low end stuff. I never met anyone that learned how to play the guitar in the most fancy guitar and with a super professional sound equipment. First you need to learn, then you can setup a studio in your garage with "all the good stuff".

Information is available, and so is the technology.
...
written by e harmony, December 04, 2006
Brazilian expat,

I believe poster: A Brazilian, reply to you is very sufficient and I believe he makes excellent points, such as the prevalence of wireless / cellular phones in Brazil (throughout Latin America for that matter).

But I would like to point out - since you have a fascination with automobiles - that Singapore has a very prosperous economy and standard of living and cars are very expensive in Singapore. The government of Singapore intentionally places large surcharges on automobiles so as to encourage walking, public transportation, and to reduce traffic. As a result a basic sedan in Singapore costs around $40,000. The Singapore government is considered very authoritarian and regulates even the personal use of chewing gum, she has already outlawed certain religious groups from her country. One thing the Singapore government does do is grant tax breaks to people for additional years of schooling. The society of Singapore has none of the levelsof social ills of the United States (or Brazil) such as slums, crime, unemployment, murder, or children living in poverty.
Re: Brazilian Expat is delusional
written by Brazilian expat, December 04, 2006
Not really, cell phones are very cheap around here. The companies subside a lot of the price and make money in other ways. I would say that cell phones in Brazil are VERY cheap in comparison to everything else.


What about reading everything that I wrote? I was talking about JAVA POWERED CELL PHONES. The kind of cell phone that you would find for R$ 1.000,00 in early 2005 and now cost about R$ 300,00. At this price, only now computer science students across the country are getting used to such devices, while the japanese students were used to them since the early 2000s (as such, writing applications for them since the early 2000s). We already have a low income, what makes keeping the technology pace difficult and the government makes it even more difficult by imposing high taxes on high tech products. Stupid, to say the least.

1- Brazil is well known world leader in Java development;


OH REALLY!? If Brazil is that world leader, then why didn't it become a powerhouse on IT outsourcing? Show me your stats, let us see where Brazil is the world leader you are talking about. I simply can't find them!

Nonsense! Listen to yourself, you are out of your mind! A decent video board costs around R$ 200, a month salary of a junior programmer (i.e. just came out of college) won't be less than R$ 3000,00. What nonsense is that you are talking about!?


What's a decent video board for you? A Radeon 9250? C'mon, that board was already old 2 years ago in the developed world! And it remains being very expensive for most brazilians...
About the juniors programmers, just check Apinfo data (http://www.apinfo3.com/p06sal-exp-ti.htm). Just PJ pays that by the average. By CLT (normal job by law), it's only slightly more than R$ 1.300,00. Remember that, by PJ, all the taxes are on charge of the employee, so they are likely to end up with R$ 1.500,00 to R$ 2.000,00 if they don't evade taxes.

I thought Mechanical Engineers worked on projects that required such skill. As a matter of fact, any engineering job will work in developing technology, not fixing old cars.

I didn't say that. But Brazil remains having a huge market for devices developed for use in VW Gol (a short version of Golf that's only made in Brazil, afaik), Fiat Uno and even worse, Chevrolet Chevettes and Opalas. Nothing really high tech here...

Nonsense. Laptops costs much but nothing prevents people from working from their desktops from home.

What if that person needs to take his computer to visit clients or show some project remotely? That's a possibility that simply doesn't happen.

Anyway, why am I discussing with you? I'm glad I don't live in Brazil anymore. I'm glad I live in a rich country, I can drive a Mustang, which is a much more comfortable, faster and durable car, I have a top laptop which is not difficult to afford, a comfortable chair and a large house (ok, houses in Brazil are also very good and big, so that's not much better here). I'm much more productive now, I can solve my problems while traveling between cities using a cell phone and a laptop, I never get lost because my car has GPS and I'm not even barely rich. The country where I live gives me much more freedom and opportunities, without the need to dictate what I'm going to buy and from whom. Everything I do is easier for me today. For those people who are happy about their crappy computers, their old expensive cars and their electric fenced houses... well, there is a country called Brazil (I really miss the rice and beans, however)
To e harmony
written by Brazilian expat, December 04, 2006
Good example! Ok, Singapore has a lot of restrictions for the cars industry, but the rest is very free and import taxes are very low. Also, the government does its proper job in keeping crime rates low, with severe punishments against criminals. All that environment makes the country rich and makes it possible to develop a somewhat advanced auto-parts industry (not that much really, and it's definitely not one of the main industries in that country). However, most of it is not for internal sale, as Singapore has a small population, but for exports. And I'm sure the lives of those engineers is made more difficult due to import taxes.

Still, if you like so much those places that are not free, why don't you go live in Singapore at once? I'm sure you would have a great life there. But I'm afraid you are really in love with another country, so you should quit your Detroit, Flint, or whatever is the city in the Midwest that you live in, and go live in Brazil. You just think like most brazilians, as you are able to pick a bad example from a rich country and point it as the solution! Hmm, but in Brazil I guess your life would not be that easy. At least you would eat good food, but forget about your Pringles or whatever industrialized food you are used to. Just do like I did and move your ass out of Michigan...
Brazilian Expat lives in another dimension
written by A brazilian, December 05, 2006
Living abroad is not enough to be so out of sync with reality, in your case it must be another dimension. BTW, this is getting boring, you don't even remember what your point was anyway, and it's just answering for the sake of having the last word. I would ignore it but this you really came up with some gems I couldn't let pass. smilies/smiley.gif

What about reading everything that I wrote? I was talking about JAVA POWERED CELL PHONES...


You are wrong, because:

- Any product can be paid in several parts in the credit card, and that's usually what people do. Cell phones are not only cheap but very easy to buy, you don't need to pay in cash or at once;
- Brasil has a cell phone density of 50%, that means that 1 out of every 2 brazilians have a cell phone;
- In total numbers Brasil is the biggest market in Latin America;

Source: http://idgnow.uol.com.br/telec...ticia_view

Do you have any statistics backing this assumption of yours that the 91 million cell phones around, in its vast majority, aren't Java enabled?
If you make such assumption about Brazil, what about the other countries in LA?
And what about the US?

If the PC gets better and better with time and comparatively can do more for less money... well, you know the rest of the story.

OH REALLY!? If Brazil is that world leader, then why didn't it become a powerhouse on IT outsourcing? Show me your stats, let us see where Brazil is the world leader you are talking about. I simply can't find them!


http://idgnow.uol.com.br/comp**acao_corporativa/2005/07/01/idgnoticia.2006-03-12.6547166912/IDGNoticia_view

BTW, outsourcing doesn't equals development. Could you please tell me how many Indian companies do you know that produces technology like Microsoft, Google, Oracle, IBM, etc? Outsourcing is simple cheap labor force, the only people the profit from it are the owners of consultancy firms and the american companies that save the money by not hiring americans. The "Average Joe Programmer" will be badly paid, because if he were better paid there would be little advantage in outsourcing it, wouldn't it? Given all the overhead, timezone differences, cultural differences, etc, that could kill a project it must be really worth the dollars for doing so, right?

Development of technology is what gives money and wealth, not call centers.

What's a decent video board for you? A Radeon 9250?...


A video board that supports the latest versions of the popular graphics APIs, namely OpenGL 2.0 and DirectX 9.0c, is not only good but excellent for learning purposes, Which was the point of your post, that you apparently forgot.

About the juniors programmers, just check Apinfo data (http://www.apinfo3.com/p06sal-exp-ti.htm). Just PJ pays that by the average. By CLT (normal job by law), it's only slightly more than R$ 1.300,00.


That's the average of all the people that participated in it, it's by no means a representative salary in capitals such as São Paulo. R$ 1500,00 to R$ 2000,00 is how much an intern makes in here, around R$ 3000,00 for junior developers. PJ values are usually 50% to 80% bigger than CLT.

I would suggest you to send your resume to any company in Sao Paulo asking for R$ 1300,00 a month. They will think you are a con man!! I would like to be a fly on the wall of the person that received it, it would be funny to watch.

For you to have an idea, a friend of mine participated in a selection process recently and the negiotiation started in R$ 2000,00, but of course they always put the value way down in the beginning for trying to get to a middle term. He had just graduated a few months earlier. Another friend recently got a job as a junior programmer, CLT, R$ 4000,00.

I didn't say that. But Brazil remains having a huge market for devices developed for use in VW Gol (a short version of Golf that's only made in Brazil, afaik), Fiat Uno and even worse, Chevrolet Chevettes and Opalas. Nothing really high tech here...


And what the f*** does it have to do with Engineers?

What if that person needs to take his computer to visit clients or show some project remotely? That's a possibility that simply doesn't happen.


What!? If you are salesman and can't afford a laptop you should really think about getting into another profession.

I'm much more productive now, I can solve my problems while traveling between cities using a cell phone and a laptop, I never get lost because my car has GPS and I'm not even barely rich.


Same here, cell phone, laptop, everything. And I live in Brazil. How many years you are living abroad? 20? You are completely out of sync with everything. No touch with reality whatsoever.
Brazilian Expat knows my reality better than I do, or not... :)
written by A brazilian, December 05, 2006
About the juniors programmers, just check Apinfo data (http://www.apinfo3.com/p06sal-exp-ti.htm). Just PJ pays that by the average. By CLT (normal job by law), it's only slightly more than R$ 1.300,00. Remember that, by PJ, all the taxes are on charge of the employee, so they are likely to end up with R$ 1.500,00 to R$ 2.000,00 if they don't evade taxes


Oh boy, this is laughable. The only time I did 1300 was when I had finished the technical school (a kind of high school with technology) and was 18 years old. I have been making much more than 2000 a month as a CLT developer, and I am not an exception to the rule. A PJ developer, boy...

This site is full of funny people.
Re: Brazilian Expat knows my reality better than I do, or not... :)
written by Brazilian expat, December 05, 2006
Stats say it all... and I would say they are kind of exaggerated. Brazil are not only São Paulo, there are other places like Curitiba or Porto Alegre that are "important" centers of software development as well... and those people hardly earn R$ 1.000,00 when they just graduate. BTW, is your accountant really good? You know, having problems with Receita Federal is quite dangerous, you cannot have a public job when you get dumped at age 35... and you don't think you can make a living as a waiter in Brazil, do you?

You're both a liar or you are a really very good programmer (or with relatives in high places), A brazilian. Anyway, you deserve it all. Let me get back to my brand new PS3, relax a little... who knows I can port Linux to it smilies/smiley.gif... oh, sorry I forgot that, really sorry... you are likely to have a PS3 only in 2 or 3 years for 3 times the price I've paid for it... when all the development to make it great for several uses besides games is already done... poor people, those felow countrymen of mine... they are always backwards and have no chance to be producing the latest technology in large scale... simply because they don't have contact with the best technology at the same time as the others...
Re: Re: Brazilian Expat knows my reality better than I do, or not... :)
written by A brazilian, December 05, 2006
Stats say it all... and I would say they are kind of exaggerated. Brazil are not only São Paulo, there are other places like Curitiba or Porto Alegre that are "important" centers of software development as well...


Those "Stats" is not representative of the state of the industry at all. Any intelligent human being living in Sao Paulo knows how much a developer makes, remembering that Sao Paulo is where 33% of the economy of this country is. You are completely out of touch with the reality.

I don't doubt that in some smaller towns people make that little. But it's impossible to have a good standard of living in a city like Sao Paulo with that.

BTW, is your accountant really good?


I don't need one, I work as CLT and make more money than your supposed PJ would make. smilies/smiley.gif If I were PJ would probably be making 50% more.

You're both a liar or you are a really very good programmer ...


Well, a liar I am not, but, as I said, I am not an exception to the rule by far. And I am not even close to being the best paid developer by far too. But I even started making more than the PJ that your "stat" makes, but as a CLT.

BTW, there was another message I sent debunking your response topic by topic that was to be "reviewed by the admin of the site". So, I hope, soon we will see it because I don't really feel like typing all of that again.

you are likely to have a PS3 only in 2 or 3 years ...


Sir, I am sure you have just found out the meaning of life.
... my response was reviewed
written by A brazilian, December 05, 2006
My response appeared, it's a few before these ones.
Salaries in the public sector
written by A brazilian, December 05, 2006
There was recently one exam for working on government agency for developers, R$ 7000,00.
Re:
written by Brazilian expat, December 06, 2006
Boring? This is very funny! I'm talking with someone who pays more for his products, earns less for his work than similar other people around the world and is still happy!

Ah, Atech? Well, it's very easy to win prizes when you are using other people money eh? BTW, isn't Atech the one responsible for the systems in brazilians airports? Isn't there a problem with obsolete systems in the airports? Truly great! Earning money, what really matters, they don't. Still, Atech is one isolated case of a prize-winner. Perhaps there are some 6 or so in Brazil. For such a big and populous country. A shame really. Listen kid, list me one worldly known software made by a brazilian company. List me who made the most used software inside Brazil. You say Brazil is known as a big software developer, but I simply don't listen about it in the US. Ok, outsourcing is not a measure. But Brazil don't export software nor any brazilian company is among the leaders inside the country itself the same way as happens in India... a shame.

India is really a very good example. They have the same limitations as Brazil. And I agree with you, they don't produce anything special. Things are only developed there when there is no way to gain more quality and they need to be done cheaper... and Brazil don't get even to keep pace with that... a shame.

Let me ask you a question: with this huge salary of something between R$ 4.000 and R$ 5.000 (US$ 1,818 and US$ 2,272, which only happens in big companies), while paying two to three times the price that I pay for the same high tech products (not exactly the same, as brazilians use to buy refurbished goods), are you able to buy a car with a DVD/GPS, as any middle class american is able to? Not even those R$ 450/day (US$ 204) rented Toyota Corollas have it !(BTW, Toyota Corolla is an executive class car in Brazil, as rental companies use to list it). Forget it, most IT managers don't have access to it, and it'll become common in Brazil only in 7 to 10 years... so, how are you supposed to develop an application for this kind of thing if you don't have access to this technology? You won't, and that's my point. It'll become common in Brazil when it's already old in the developed world, when someone already became rich with it, and when there is not really much to improve on that technology. Then brazilians will try to make some bucks on it... laughable. I'm glad the best brazilian programmers leave the country, they prove that we are not fool, despite our fellow countrymen who remain in Brazil make us look like that.

A Radeon 9250 doesn't support soft shadows nor shader 2.0 for instance. Did you notice that the rare games produced in Brazil already look out when they are released? The last that I remember is that one based on PCC attacks... truly ugly.

91 million cell phones for a population of almost 200 million? Wow! The US had about 80% of the population with cell phones... in 1998. And being the biggest in Latin America, one of the poorest regions in the world is no more than obligation for the most populous country in the region.

What!? If you are salesman and can't afford a laptop you should really think about getting into another profession.

This one is the funniest. That's what brazilians do all the time smilies/smiley.gif. And don't worry about me. I can afford a laptop very easily. I'm afraid it's not as easy for you, as you have to be paying more than R$ 10.000 (US$ 4,500) for the same laptop that I use to pay US$ 1,300 or so... glad you have Paraguay, but Lula is not very happy about the cheap products coming from there...
Canada also is a pain in the ass
written by Tanaka, December 06, 2006
REAL JOB MARKET IN CANADA
Canadian government immigration policy enables the bringing of many immigrants every year to Canada. The government promises independent immigrants a good chance of finding a job, developing professional skills, receiving a good education, and earning enough to rent an apartment and make a life in fair conditions. Hundred of thousands of people believe in this promise and come to Canada.
These people even do not anticipate the Canadian reality. Nobody tells them the truth before their arrival in Canada and after.
Then what is the real Canadian immigration policy? What are its objectives? How are those objectives realized? Who pay for it? How does the Canadian job market work? What kind of ethics has people who create the policy?
Now I will draw you a big picture in order to easier understand the main objective. Canada brings in up to 300,000 immigrants a year. Each of them, if he wants to survive in Canada, must spend at least $10,000 dollars a year to keep afloat. In big cities such as Toronto the minimum reaches almost up to $20,000 thousand dollars a year. What does it mean for Canada? It means that the economy of Canada receives approximately an amount of between three and six billion dollars each year. Immigrants have to spend this money for the rental of apartments (very expensive), food, clothes, transportation etc.
What do the immigrants receive for it? Do they receive what they expect to? What are the facts?
Once the famous writer George Orwell said: "times are coming when talking the truth will be symptom of heroism and big challenge".
Then start to speak about it now. Do not hesitate to tell the truth about the real job market in Canada, about people who control it, hiring professionals and about obstacles which professionals and other people meet during their job searching.
You are way out of your original topic
written by A brazilian, December 06, 2006
But Brazil don't export software nor any brazilian company is among the leaders inside the country itself the same way as happens in India... a shame.


India is a source of cheap labor workforce, nothing more. We don't need it. What we need is to produce more technology.

India is really a very good example. They have the same limitations as Brazil. And I agree with you, they don't produce anything special. Things are only developed there when there is no way to gain more quality and they need to be done cheaper... and Brazil don't get even to keep pace with that... a shame.


We don't need to.

so, how are you supposed to develop an application for this kind of thing if you don't have access to this technology?


What application? For the car? If you are in the business of building such applications then you must have the money to afford it. Besides, software for embedded products usually are built on a regular PC with it running in a simulator, just like with cell phones.

A Radeon 9250 doesn't support soft shadows nor shader 2.0 for instance.


A R$ 200 card like the GeForce 7300GS do.

I'm afraid it's not as easy for you, as you have to be paying more than R$ 10.000


Not even Apple's laptops cost that much, and they are the most expensive. You can find decent laptops by R$ 3000,00, the latest models will be around R$ 5000,00.
Canada speak out
written by Tanaka, December 06, 2006
DO BREAK THE CONSPIRACY OF THE SILENCE!!
According to HDRC figures in Toronto/GTA alone almost 20,000 engineers from the entire world are looking for a job in their occupations. They cannot find a job! They receive only an ILLUSION and they have to pay a lot for it.
The role of Human Development Resource Centres - HDRC for employed people
-creating different kind of courses where immigrants are trained and where theirs brains are washed
Courses:
-resume writing (the content, fonts, get-up of resume etc.); how to send resume by email, fax, mail or set on a web site
-what kind of adjectives to use to make a good impression on readers
-how to make a good impression during an interview, what is allowed and what is not during an interview (how to be a good actor)
-how to network in order to find a job (usually this means meeting others who are unemployed as well.)
-how to fight down stress, keep up your optimism to continue looking for a job (the objective of the policy is to stop immigrants in Canada as long as possible and to receive from them thousands of dollars for Canadian economy)
Brains washing:
-inviting to take courses to improve professional skills (big business); however after a course you cannot receive a job because employers usually ask about 3-5 years Canadian experience in the occupation and required environment;
-talking only about chosen elements of the entire job market (it means that HDRC staff is hired by Canadian government to hide uncomfortable information about the job market and to achieve objectives of the immigration policy; it is not the staff fault - if they do not do it they will be laid off)
-creating an illusion trust in immigrants that if they speak fluent English they will receive a job or if they have a good resume they will receive a job, or if they send resume by email, fax or deliver personally they will receive a job, or if they finish any courses and get a certificate (they spend a lot of time and money) they will receive a job, or if they co-operate with an agent or an agency they will receive a job, or if they co-operate with many agencies and send a resume to many (i.e.1,000) companies they will receive a job or ...,
-there are organized meetings with motivational speakers; during those meetings listeners are faced with intensive washing their brains; there is prohibited discussion about problems and ideas which are stuck into listeners' brains as the truth does not undergo discussion; any attempts to discuss those "truths" are smothered; people who complain that speaker says untruths are loudly admonished about a conceit, in the way slaves are trained who become insensible, giving in, passive, avoiding a truth if it is nasty or make them any discomfort; in the way are created a kind of behaviours for people who are totally reluctant any changes and accepting the evil which encircles them.
-propagating idea of globalism a new totalitarian system, world without God, without nations, without variety of cultures, traditions, human behaviour, where the money will be the most important value and a man will be as a tool for gaining a money so other words money will a god and a man will be a trash.
Canada speak out II
written by Tanaka, December 06, 2006
Be aware those people who spread those ideas:
-demoralization of people by persuading them to lie to employers in order not to recognize that they are urgently looking for a job,
-nobody wants to say that if you want to survive, to find a good job you must have resources which means money for rent, food, clothes; nobody wants to say that for honest, diligent, friendly, well educated, experienced professionals, even with good references, there are no jobs in Canada
-very often they make an offer to change your skills (i.e. if you are a very experience engineer they make you an offer to be an assistant of a cleaner)
Hiring employees by companies and agencies:
-90% available positions are hidden; they are not advertised on the job market; those jobs are reserved for Canadians only - they call it democracy however this is a symptom of chauvinism and contempt for emigrants;
-above positions receive families members of companies owners, their friends and friend of their friend; for them there are the easiest and the best paid jobs; usually for them are organized courses from a beginner level even for free
-very often for an open position a few hundred resumes came; from the above pile of resume only a few is chosen randomly; the rest of the resumes are not read at all and sent to the garbage or "database"
-good references from other Canadian or US companies confirming the good qualifications of a candidate are not considered
-many companies have own agencies and interview only candidates who are chosen by the agencies;
-to set a resume on known web sites as workopolis.com, monster.com, jobshark.com etc. is a waste of time; the adds about jobs on them there are a bait
-companies and agencies protect themselves against receiving resumes, they do not want to receive too many resumes, do not respond on calls, emails. You are prohibited from calling them (if you call you will not receive the job because you are treated as unruly person); they do not want to receive resumes by fax etc. This is a symptom of rudeness.
-if you come in person to a company nobody from HR or managers want to talk to you; they instruct you to leave your resume and get out
-Human Resources departments are black holes where there is a lot of discrimination as to nationalism, place of graduation, age, English etc. that points to incompetence or chauvinism the hiring of staff members; they are as fussy children, they despise immigrants and their skills
-there are agencies which for a bribe up to two to five thousand dollars with a promise to find a job for you within two to four years; this a big trap - in the way you give an advance without an interest for you and you are blocked in the place where you live)
-there are agencies which make business hiring only volunteers who want to receive Canadian experience; this is cruelly form of people exploitation to force people work for free (without Canadian experience you can not receive a paid job)
-the hiring staff by HR of some companies is corrupted, incompetent or managers in companies are very rude. The proof is that the same companies periodically look for professionals with the same qualifications. Probably they make discrimination good professionals with different reasons.
-discrimination is done on purpose and consequently managers treat professionals as slaves. They do not care about them, about their development and getting new skills. They pigeonhole them and if they do not follow their wishes during private down time then lay off them.
-they treat immigrants with great suspicion even if those immigrants have many years experience and very good references from US and Canadian companies where they have worked
-cleaners in Canada are paid up to $10-12/hour; Canadian Government hires very experienced professionals (engineers, masters) who received UI and who cannot find a job in their occupations for contracts paid less then $9/hour (see: www.epi.ca/ontario/seeker.htm); this is a new age of contempt; in that way some companies receive good professionals for free solution their problems; who are the owners of those companies that they can receive the privilege?
- the job market in Canada is very corrupted, it is sick. The proof is: engineer with over ten years experience in IT and excellent references from US and Canadian companies cannot find a job, no interviews no call back from any companies and agencies where they have sent their resume during the last 2 years. Why? Think about it.
Canada speak out III
written by Tanaka, December 06, 2006
Bellow there are reasons to do not give you a job.
-because you have not graduated from Canadian college or university; because you have not Canadian experience; your qualification are unknown
-because you finished a course however you do not have experience; because you do not know the Queen's English
-because you know too many things so you are over qualified - they do not trust you (a good Canadian professional knows ONE thing very well)
-they are looking for i.e. experienced programmers or plumbers with experience in a bank or warehouse etc. so if you are excellent professional however you did not work in a bank or warehouse - you will not receive the job
-because of lack of continuous professional career, stable career history, because of gaps between particular jobs; it means you are guilty if they do want to give you a job; because you are honest, diligent who was not born in Canada and you say that you were treated very badly by your previous manager
-you will not be admitted to the interview process without any explanation
-if you are very human, friendly, good and diligent in your occupation - they lay off you because you are too good and they do not tolerate competitors.
People who speak loudly about this entire problem are charged with having a bad thinking and attitude. They are told that they cannot receive a job because they are smart and they can see all negatives on the job market. Some people say to immigrants if they do not be obey slaves and do not like to be treated like that - get out of here to your country. There are many others in your position.
Many managers and HR staff destroy good, diligent and competent professionals who do not want to be slaves and do not follow their pleasure. They love only themselves and money. For them somebody who was laid off twice is a very suspicious person. They think simply if somebody is good he is not laid off and they do not care about his excellent references. In that way they waste the time - and the life - of good professionals. They are incredible presumptuous.
Hiring people and managers show you they can trample you as a c**kroach because you are completely dependent on them. You are only a mercenary - NOBODY. They show you that your education and entire knowledge, which you possess, are worth less than zero because in Canada they can push you in a mud of poverty whenever they want. They can kick you as a homeless dog if you will stand against them in the most insignificant matter. For them the most important are money and power. They tolerate only slaves who always and everywhere do what are instructed to do even if they are off duty. They hate human, proud, honest, diligent people and they feed themselves the pleasure if they can kick those good independent people. They are incredible selfish and like to do it.
Canada speak out IV
written by Tanaka, December 06, 2006
Below there are some ideas, which are spread in written materials by motivational speakers who talk to the unemployed in HDRCs:
-avoid negative sources, people, places, things and habits (my comment: in other words avoid wise people who show you the truth which can make you unhappy and create your discomfort instead show you a false which can make you happy; avoid documents and a truth about the world; live only in a world of lies and illusions which is created by media and their owners if it make you happy - however remember that live in illusion costs the most; in the way bad and selfish people and behaviours are created; in the way hot and angry moods of different communities are cooled down)
-ignore those who try to discourage you (my comment: another words avoid wise people who try to warn you against dangers; they encourage you to be a brave and arrogant; do not recognise rings of right and evil; be ignorant so let caress a snake because it is beautiful; in the way good and wise people are pushed aside and isolated because they want to show or tell truth about abnormalities or dangers; this is policy directed against people who criticise politics and people who keep power)
-love yourself first and most (my comment: another words be a soulless egoist, do not care about others who need help, be insensitive and ignore others)
-take control of your own destiny (my comment: this is a false slogan because we can control only our attitude and behaviour to be a good loving person by others from our community. The rest is out of your reach. The rest is controlled by money-lenders and usurers (who create money from the air and demand an interest – it means the money, which do not exist because it do not have real equivalent in products populations; they turn people and nations into slaves), by politics, owners of companies and HR people. Our quality of life depends on each of the groups. You can be smart as an Einstein and you cannot get a job.
All the above ideas are spread for taxpayers' money. The knowledge is being inculcated to listeners during the courses in HDRCs. Listeners are taught to be disloyal to employers i.e. if you find better or equivalent job then leave the actual job. Create an image around you that you are a person who is needed. Do not allow yourself to be laid off or fired because other employers will treat you badly and even the best references will not help you find a job.
Canada speak out V
written by Tanaka, December 06, 2006
Canada pretends to be a democratic and fair country however Canadian immigrant policy is a show, a false performance, a trap to entice well educated people who have money which they must spend in Canada. Canada has not invested even a cent in education of those good professionals so without any hesitance destroy them.
This policy is directed against those good people, their nations and countries. It weakens the economy of those countries and takes away often the good diligent professionals and destroys them in Canada because they cannot get a job in their occupations even if they have good references from Canadian companies where they worked. Canada is an ENEMY of those people and their countries. Canada wants to dominate other countries by destroying good professionals who come from them, turn professionals into labourers and take away them money. Canadians detest immigrants, often call them c**kroaches and lay off them readily even when they are better than Canadian professionals when a company has any problems. Their countries miss well-educated professionals who will not have more occasions to work in theirs occupations and will have to do any simple work to survive.
What do immigrants get from Canada? They receive almost nothing. Resources used for education immigrants are not used for development of their countries. Immigrants receive usually the most difficult jobs where is needed very good education and experience. Canadians do not want those jobs because they are too difficult, too much work and too poorly paid. If a job is done the immigrant who did it is usually laid off. The majority of immigrants cannot find a job in their occupations for months or years. Their professional careers are often ruined and wasted years of education because they have to do any simple, easy, less well-paid jobs to survive. Many of them returned to their countries without any money. Repeatedly more well educated and aware people set equal character between Canadians and CHEATS. The bankers, money lenders, apartment landlords, owners of companies and insurance companies are advocate of this policy. They have the biggest profits from it. They support the false performance about Canada as the best country and the bait is issued by media.
Who creates the Canadian immigrant policy? There are people with the same mentality who destroyed countries of East Europe and Russia. This is the same mentality and behaviour. Now they move to West Europe to create new country UE and Canada to continue their parasitically style of life and live for cost of tax payers of those countries. Many symptoms testify to it. There are the same corrupt mechanisms, parasitically armies of unproductive officers who destroy each country, each community and each nation. Always a huge bureaucracy was symptomatic of totalitarian systems as fascism, communism and different kinds of socialism.
Canada is in communism creators hands. Watch carefully and you will see who is a deathly enemy of people. They use the same methods, which were use to in communism or socialism. They know some methods are dated then they use other methods equally efficient. They change their skin. They are not called communists and prefer to be called social-democrats or liberals. They lay and cheat people all the time. The majority of them do not shoot people; they do not murder their opponents, good, honest, diligent people. Now they take away them all live resources and in the way killing them silently or they tolerate them however use to economic terror against those opponents to keep them as slaves.
Remember! Do not look at the signboards or banners which they keep above theirs heads. Watch what they do!
All people ought to remember that eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. The substructure of freedom is THE TRUTH. We have to fight with the evil, which there is around us, show it up and censure it. We must not ignore it because then we support it and we weaken THE GOOD. If we do not do it then will not be freedom for humans in Canada and others countries as well. A worse than communism totalitarian system will be built for you and your children.
The write was born and lived in Latin civilisation circle. He follows the Christian principles and his intention is to send this WARNING to all good people on the entire world to give them truth information about real job market in Canada. Jerry from Europe - jerryfromee@hotmail.com
Receita Federal must go after 'A brazilian'. He's probably buying illegal products
written by Brazilian expat, December 06, 2006
India is a source of cheap labor workforce, nothing more. We don't need it. What we need is to produce more technology.

We don't need to.

WHAT!? WE DON'T NEED THE BILLIONS THAT INDIANS ARE MAKING!? Hey, did you stop to think about what you are just saying first? As for you saying I'm way out of my original topic, I ask you once again: how are Brazil supposed to produce technology when most brazilians, including most managers, don't have access to the latest technology in their areas? Quite simply, if you don't have millions of people using DVD/GPS as there are in the US, you won't have a critical mass to produce something to make a better use of the technology, OR TO PRODUCE A BETTER TECHNOLOGY. When, in 7 years, there will be millions of brazilians using that in their cars (I just hope I'm not being too optimistic), then people will start thinking of better technologies than that, 7 YEARS AFTER THE AMERICANS, when they have already made billions on that tech. That applies to every technological product. Is that so difficult to understand that in some 95% of the cases you have to be in touch with the latest in order to produce something better?

And you think you are what? A highly qualified professional with an astounding salary? Did you already stop to realize that you earn as much as indians? Have a life, sucker!

A R$ 200 card like the GeForce 7300GS do.

Not even Apple's laptops cost that much, and they are the most expensive. You can find decent laptops by R$ 3000,00, the latest models will be around R$ 5000,00.


Hey, hey, hey, I'm talking about LEGAL laptops and parts, not those things that you smuggle across the borders. There is a huge difference, as Lula is taking steps to avoid the progress to enter the country, at once. Take a look at this laptop here (as refurbished as the ones we are used to have for sale in Brazil): http://www.amazon.com/Pavilion...lectronics

How much will cost a 17" LCD with 2GB of RAM and GeForce 7600 in Brazil? If we found it, I'm sure it would be way beyond those R$ 10.000,00. We can have an idea by comparing with this one (probably the one you claim to be a top computer):

http://www.centraldnotebook.com.br/?f=produto_detalhes&pid=42

It just has half of the RAM and no top video board... for 2 times the price!

I don't doubt you get a top laptop like that for some US$ 1,600. But no way it'll be legal. Quite simply, it's impossible.
Brazilian Expat, give up
written by A brazilian, December 06, 2006
WHAT!? WE DON'T NEED THE BILLIONS THAT INDIANS ARE MAKING!? Hey, did you stop to think about what you are just saying first?


Billions? What billions? The only merit of what they do is to provide more positions for people to work, but that's far from being an "explosion of wealth" similar to what happened in the digital revolution in the US with the PCs, Internet, etc.

You are repeating this over and over again just for the sake of winning the argument.

I ask you once again: how are Brazil supposed to produce technology when most brazilians, including most managers, don't have access to the latest technology in their areas?


But they DO have access to technology. What part of that you didn't understand?

If you mean some starving marving living in the middle of nowhere where even the basic infrastructure is missing, well, that's a social a problem and nobody expects such a person to become a entrepreneur overnight. They have much more basic problems to solve first, it doesn't matter if they are in Brasil, India, or starving somewhere else.

BTW, what did the "billions" India made for all the poverty in there?

Quite simply, if you don't have millions of people using DVD/GPS as there are in the US, you won't have a critical mass to produce something to make a better use of the technology, OR TO PRODUCE A BETTER TECHNOLOGY.


Have you ever heard of "global market"? The products you make, especially computer applications won't be restricted to this country. For distributing a computer application all you need is to setup a website.

A strong local market is always good, but the lack of it is not an impediment.

That applies to every technological product.


Are you aware that such broad generalization is an evidence that you have no clue of what you are talking about?

Is that so difficult to understand that in some 95% of the cases you have to be in touch with the latest in order to produce something better?


As if the japanese never managed to recover and surpass the US in many areas since WWII. If they were able to do it then anyone is able to do it.

And you think you are what? A highly qualified professional with an astounding salary? Did you already stop to realize that you earn as much as indians?


Actually, Brazil is not competitive with them solely in price, because IT workers here earn around 80% more than Indians. If you want the cheapest then India is the way to go.

Hey, hey, hey, I'm talking about LEGAL laptops and parts, not those things that you smuggle across the borders.


Yes, that's what I meant, as legal as this one for example: https://www.kabum.com.br/cgi-local/kabum/produtos/descricao.cgi?id=01:01:01:91:02

Good stuff for a starter. Someone learning about graphics technology should have no problem in using one of these.

How much will cost a 17" LCD with 2GB of RAM and GeForce 7600 in Brazil? If we found it, I'm sure it would be way beyond those R$ 10.000,00.


Checkout the brazilian Dell website. You will find good prices on notebooks, some basic configurations by 2000,00 and some other more robust by 5000.

You will obviously find incredible prices, but that's not even close what you can find elsewhere. But what's the point anyway? If you find a Ferrari for a million dollars does it mean that any person must have a million dollars in order to have a car?

Anyway, you are once again going out of your topic (the one that you started). I don't see how a 7600GT would be "essential" for some aspiring developer trying to learn how to work with the technology, for then to produce MORE technology, and definetely it is not important to a salesman. What, will the salesman run Doom3 for their clients?

Just give up, man.
'A brazilian' is a liar and misinformer
written by Brazilian expat, December 07, 2006
I guess you won't find anything wrong about me using an ad hominem as in the title. That's just what 50% of you arguments became in this thread afterall. As you started it, let me tell you, I just showed this thread to some american friends and they are astounded by how idiot you can be. You have been giving us good moments of laugh. Just what I ask them is not to generalize because I'm as brazilian as you are and not stupid.

Well, you seem to be very good on pointing things that others don't need. As a matter of fact, most things the modern world provides to us are not really necessary for our survival. So, let me also point some other things you don't need:
- you don't need a car. São Paulo has trains and buses for public transportation, and they work. If you think they take too long or are too overcrowded, you have a pair of legs to walk on your own;
- you don't need many clothes. Just some 2 or 3 changes is enough. Just a matter of washing them often;
- btw, you don't need a laundry machine. Mankind got to the 20th century without any, so it wouldn't be a problem for you to wash them with your hands;
- you don't need a comfortable chair; any raw wooden bench already can have you sit in front of your computer in order to work;
- you don't need those R$ 5.000,00/month salary. Some R$ 600,00/month would be already enough for you to live in São Paulo. Too little? Remember, there are millions of people in São Paulo favelas living with less than that per month;
- you don't need a house. There are millions of people in São Paulo living in paper or plastic shacks. If they live this way, you could also live like them...

On the hand, someone might think that you are also not really necessary. The commies in China and the Soviet Union got to this conclusion several times on single individuals. What is a single Java programmer in a world of millions of Java programmers, if the nation doesn't need this programmer afterall?

Now, let me reply to your pathetic letter:
Billions? What billions? The only merit of what they do is to provide more positions for people to work, but that's far from being an "explosion of wealth" similar to what happened in the digital revolution in the US with the PCs, Internet, etc.

Of course it's not the same as the digital revolution in the US. I never said that, you are saying that now. They simply couldn't, as they aren't immersed in technology. But yes, they are making tens of billions of dollar per year in software exports. How much does Brazil export? Not even US$ 100 millions? Don't make me laugh.

But they DO have access to technology. What part of that you didn't understand?

If you mean some starving marving living in the middle of nowhere where even the basic infrastructure is missing, well, that's a social a problem and nobody expects such a person to become a entrepreneur overnight. They have much more basic problems to solve first, it doesn't matter if they are in Brasil, India, or starving somewhere else.


That's the important part. Entepreneurship. How do you think a brazilian trained monkey will have an idea of making a better cell phone, or GPS, or whatever, when he doesn't even know what's that? When he will know that when the technology is already old elsewhere? And who makes more money? The entepreneur or his third world trained monkeys?
continuing...
written by Brazilian expat, December 07, 2006

As if the japanese never managed to recover and surpass the US in many areas since WWII. If they were able to do it then anyone is able to do it.

Oh sure... the japanese entered the capitalism game already producing the best technology and products. As early as in 1950 they were already bringing the european and american competitors to their knees because of the superior quality of their electronic components. Hahahahaha, that was the best! Listen, dumbhead, the japanese did just like India and China are doing right now. They copied everything. They made things cheaper and at inferior quality in the beginning. Only in 1970, after some two decades of focus in making quality better they were able to start overcoming their competitors. Any history book, even the leftist ones, will show you that. Are Brazil doing like the japanese did in the past or the chinese and indians are doing today? NO. The losers of this history are already known...

Actually, Brazil is not competitive with them solely in price, because IT workers here earn around 80% more than Indians. If you want the cheapest then India is the way to go.

Those 80% more are the salaries you claim, of course...

Good stuff for a starter. Someone learning about graphics technology should have no problem in using one of these.

Didn't you say top laptops? How much would be a laptop with 2GB of RAM in Brazil and a GeForce 7600?

I don't see how a 7600GT would be "essential" for some aspiring developer trying to learn how to work with the technology, for then to produce MORE technology, and definetely it is not important to a salesman. What, will the salesman run Doom3 for their clients?

Yes, that's what I meant, as legal as this one for example: https://www.kabum.com.br/cgi-local/kabum/produtos/descricao.cgi?id=01:01:01:91:02

Do you know how much is a crappy GeForce 7300LE (the cheapest and least powerful of all GeForce 7 models) in the US, Europe or any sane market? Well, by reading your link, I didn't get to discover the actual memory of the video board, as it just supports 512MB of shared memory (just like the onboard models). I guess you didn't notice that. Well, I will reply to you, see here how much costs a similar model in the US: http://www.amazon.com/Geforce-...lectronics
Just US$ 54 and not refurbished!!! How much does your cost? US$ 163!? Wow, brazilians are truly rich to pay so much for such a low profile video card eh?


Let me get back to the laptop example. Any american (janitor, McDonald's employee and such) receiving a horrible salary of US$ 2,500/month needs to work 10 days to earn the money to afford that top laptop with 2GB of RAM and a top GeForce. He could start learning how to use Autocad or Photoshop in one of these computers to get a better job. You, receiving an astounding R$ 5.000,00/month (which puts you among the 2% most well paid in the nation) need to work 24 days to buy a 100% overpriced (by government taxes) median laptop with half the RAM and without that great video board. If you were a designer (you didn't think about the designers when you were saying that programmers don't need 3D video boards, right?), you would be really lost... and you couldn't start learning the latest Autocad in your poor machine... get lost!

And I don't see why you need such a fast computer... a Pentium 166 with 64MB of RAM and Windows 98 would already be enough for you to browse the Internet and use Office 97. How many millions of lines of code were written in machines much worse than that? We should call the brazilian government to raise the prices of those parts for people like you. You simply don't need it and cuban programmers get along with their jobs on those machines...
Lie exposed...
written by Brazilian expat, December 07, 2006
'A brazilian', did you mean that not even Apple notebooks cost as much as R$ 10.000,00? What about this splendid Macbook for R$ 11.759,00 (US$ 5,345.00)? smilies/grin.gif

http://www.fnac.com.br/Product.aspx?idProduct=0000045585616&idDept=7016&src=

Man, do you know what you are talking about? I don't even dream about finding a US$ 5,000.00 laptop even in Europe!
RE: Brazilian Expat
written by e harmony, December 07, 2006

written by Brazilian expat, 2006-12-06 19:54:14

I guess you won't find anything wrong about me using an ad hominem as in the title. That's just what 50% of you arguments became in this thread afterall. As you started it, let me tell you, I just showed this thread to some american friends and they are astounded by how idiot you can be. You have been giving us good moments of laugh. Just what I ask them is not to generalize because I'm as brazilian as you are and not stupid...

That's the important part. Entepreneurship. How do you think a brazilian trained monkey will have an idea of making a better cell phone, or GPS, or whatever, when he doesn't even know what's that? When he will know that when the technology is already old elsewhere? And who makes more money? The entepreneur or his third world trained monkeys?


You may or may not be Brazilian, but my intuition tells me you're not.
RE: Brazilian Expat
written by Brazilian expat, December 07, 2006
You may or may not be Brazilian, but my intuition tells me you're not.


hauheuaheuehu, isso é muito divertido! Tua intuição tá errada, velhinho... ó aqui pra vc ó: _|_. E a minha? Tá certa? Você é do Michigan, certo? Só não sei ainda se Detroit ou Flint, nessas cidades tá cheio de burro com titica na cachola mesmo... parecem todos teus clones, pensam igualzinho a você...

É melhor aprender a amar este país, não há nada melhor que ele na Terra... acostume-se com isso (e antes que esse bando de ignorante que tenho vergonha de chamar de compatriota venha falar alguma merda (pra usar um termo bem alemão), é claro que o "este país" de que falei... não é o Brasil... hehehehe)
Slum people
written by Tanaka, December 07, 2006
This idea of Brazilian govern to distribuit $100 real lap tops is a bad idea becuase people from slum that do not know English are landing here.
Brazilian Expat is clueless
written by A brazilian, December 07, 2006
As you started it, let me tell you, I just showed this thread to some american friends and they are astounded by how idiot you can be.


Hahaha, yes, they must really know Brazil and all about the world. Aren't americans famous for their profound knowledge in geography and world history?

Listen, dumbhead, the japanese did just like India and China are doing right now. They copied everything. They made things cheaper and at inferior quality in the beginning.


Did I say otherwise? Japan managed to surpass the US in many areas and that's it. They didn't start some outsourcing business as you were implying that "is needed". I will only believe India has a future of technology producer and influencer when I see Indian companies around selling their stuff. You know, products not cheap labor.

Didn't you say top laptops? How much would be a laptop with 2GB of RAM in Brazil and a GeForce 7600?


WHO CARES? What's your point!? Weren't you saying that people has no access to technology. I proved you were wrong! End of story.

Give up! Now you will try to compare prices on computer parts? What for?

Do you know how much is a crappy GeForce 7300LE (the cheapest and least powerful of all GeForce 7 models)


So what!? For someone that's learning, an aspiring programmer, it's PERFECT. It supports the latest versions of the graphical APIs used in the industry!!

"Brazilian Expat" you are a loser. You probably went to the US to make little money, subjecting yourself to crappy jobs in order to survive (at least in the beginning), and now you are trying to justify to your conscience that you did the right thing because Brazil "it's so much worse". You tried to paint things here in bad color, I proved you are wrong.

Anyone interested in knowing "how much" a PC or notebook costs please check out the brazilian Dell website. You will find lots different prices and models in there. Remembering that Dell is higher price than other lesser known brands, so assume you can find even cheaper in other places of Brazil.

Brazilian Expat, so is Dell a liar too?

'A brazilian', did you mean that not even Apple notebooks cost as much as R$ 10.000,00? What about this splendid Macbook for R$ 11.759,00 (US$ 5,345.00)?


Apple sucks and Brazil is 100% PC because of their price. I ask you again, what's your point? Your completely lost it, you don't even know what you are talking about anymore.

Apple has such a small market share that I don't think we are losing anything.
Brazilian Expat, the illegal immigrant
written by A brazilian, December 07, 2006
How do you think a brazilian trained monkey will have an idea of making a better cell phone, or GPS, or whatever, when he doesn't even know what's that?


The same way americans trained monkeys do.

Tell me, did you clean too many toilets in there? I think you are all upset because I showed you a reality of Brazil that you were excluded from. So, did you cross the border illegaly to flip burgers and clean toilets? And now you are trying to convince yourself that being someone else's carpet is better than anything else in Brazil?

Hahahaha.
Fallacies, fallacies, fallacies...
written by Brazilian expat, December 07, 2006
Hey, what about arguing instead of just insulting me? Can't you show some decent arguments without attacking me?

Let me put some things clear to you here: no, I'm not illegal. Don't assume things about me, don't be pathetic. I work in software industry, not cleaning

toilets. I simply love this country, despite the fact that there are democrats and Michigan people like e harmony or Michael Moore trying to ruin it. That's

the real danger. There are also other problems, like the high taxes on food imports, but contrary to you, I'm not passionate to defend them just because they

are something peculiar to the country that I love. However, there is something here that you won't ever understand: if everything else goes bad, if

everything fails, I can go clean toilets and make a decent living, comparable to upper middle class in Brazil. I have the chance to buy things in order to

learn new skills and get a better job, always. That would be simply impossible in Brazil. In Brazil, however, one has a chance of working to the government

via 'Concurso Público'. That's a fairly safe job which you won't find in the United States. However, that implies that one will be poor for the rest of his

life. Decent, but poor. And today a public job is not that safe, as the government is not hiring 'estatutários' anymore. That means a government trying to

cut costs can fire workers very easily, without the need for all those 'sindicâncias'.

Let's talk about India and China. Both are not good models. India restricts economical freedom a lot, and China restricts both freedom of speech and economic

freedom. Both have very high import taxes, and as such, keep their people even more far away from the best technology. Still, they offer some incentives for

companies that want to produce technology there, and that shy, tiny incentive renders them billions. Brazil don't even do that. India and China may not be

the winners in the long run, but Brazil certainly are in the losers' side. Outsourcing is just one side of this game. But make no mistake, US and european

companies outsourced a lot of jobs to Japan in the 1950s and 1960s, in order to produce electronic components. American automakers outsourced some assembly

lines to Japan in the 1950s, particularly those to produce Jeeps for the Korean war. Go read about Ohnism, ok?

Hahaha, yes, they must really know Brazil and all about the world. Aren't americans famous for their profound knowledge in geography and world

history?

Ad hominem. Stereotype. Most of those people have traveled to more than 10 different countries... fortunately they don't do as you do, otherwise they would

think every japanese is a kamikaze and every brazilian is a liar and a cheater by your comments...
continuing...
written by Brazilian expat, December 07, 2006
WHO CARES? What's your point!? Weren't you saying that people has no access to technology. I proved you were wrong! End of story.

You certainly don't care, as well as most brazilians. But I care, and I have brazilian friends who care. And you haven't proved anything. Just that you are a liar and a misinformer.

Give up! Now you will try to compare prices on computer parts? What for?

Are you afraid of it? Well, you said the prices were affordable in Brazil. You said there weren't laptops for more than R$ 10.000,00 for sale in there. You

said there are good video boards for as low as R$ 200. Well, let's bring the prices then, let's bring the sources, let the readers know what we are talking

about. Thanks for bringing it, it makes it even easier for me to indicate them that the huge average salary that you are talking about is also a lie... it's

very funny. You say the prices are lower and salaries are higher than they actually are in Brazil... while you actually learn less and pay more for your

things :lol:

Afterall, if that doesn't make sense, why did you bring prices of computer parts here anyway? You could have just dropped it...

So what!? For someone that's learning, an aspiring programmer, it's PERFECT. It supports the latest versions of the graphical APIs used in the

industry!!

Not perfect for someone wanting to learn Autocad to compete in the global market however. As I said, there are several different people with several

different professions in the world. And just because both you or me or anyone else are not able to grasp what one and every person in their individual

professions need, we cannot say what's necessary or not.

And again, if the government is to decide what kind of environment one needs to learn programming... well, it should give you a 10-year old Pentium 166 with

64MB of RAM and Windows 98, as well as a wooden bench for you. You don't need more than that to learn programming anyway...

Anyone interested in knowing "how much" a PC or notebook costs please check out the brazilian Dell website. You will find lots different prices and

models in there. Remembering that Dell is higher price than other lesser known brands, so assume you can find even cheaper in other places of Brazil.

Those models were already old in the US and Europe 1 1/2 year ago. The ones that were not cost more than US$ 2,000. Quite good for such a poor country...

Readers, take a look here: http://www.dell.com.br. It's easy to navigate in the site even if you don't know portuguese. Divide the price by 2.2 and you'll

have the price in dollars.

Apple sucks and Brazil is 100% PC because of their price. I ask you again, what's your point? Your completely lost it, you don't even know what you

are talking about anymore.

Again, you are misinformed. There are PCs costing more than R$ 10.000,00 as well. Take a look:

http://www.fnac.com.br/Product.aspx?idProduct=0000046819598&idDept=7113&src=
...
written by A brazilian, December 07, 2006
Ad hominem. Stereotype. Most of those people have traveled to more than 10 different countries... fortunately they don't do as you do, otherwise they would think every japanese is a kamikaze and every brazilian is a liar and a cheater by your comments...


If they believe India is drawning in dollars and everyone is getting rich then they didn't travel enough. smilies/smiley.gif

Remember this topic started because you used India as an example and I proved to you that outsourcing is nothing more than cheap labor. Technology is where the money is and India is not there.

You certainly don't care, as well as most brazilians. But I care, and I have brazilian friends who care. And you haven't proved anything. Just that you are a liar and a misinformer.


How directing people to Dell's website and telling about average salary in Sao Paulo for IT workers is misinforming?

Are you afraid of it? Well, you said the prices were affordable in Brazil. You said there weren't laptops for more than R$ 10.000,00 for sale in there. You said there are good video boards for as low as R$ 200. Well, let's bring the prices then, let's bring the sources, let the readers know what we are talking


I already did it. You seem to point out ONE ISOLATED case of overpriced stuff and use it as a "proof". I repeat, want to see affordable PCs, check out Dell's site. And they aren't even the cheapest.

Not perfect for someone wanting to learn Autocad to compete in the global market however. As I said, there are several different people with several different professions in the world. And just because both you or me or anyone else are not able to grasp what one and every person in their individual


It's good enough for learning purposes. For all tasks, not just programming. Get over it.

And again, if the government is to decide what kind of environment one needs to learn programming... well, it should give you a 10-year old Pentium 166 with 64MB of RAM and Windows 98, as well as a wooden bench for you. You don't need more than that to learn programming anyway...


I have the money to afford decent PCs and furniture, I don't need the government to give me anything.

Readers, take a look here: http://www.dell.com.br. It's easy to navigate in the site even if you don't know portuguese. Divide the price by 2.2 and you'll have the price in dollars.


1 - Such prices are affordable;
2 - You can a PC for less than a 1000;
3 - What's your point again?

You said absurd things like the salary being 1300 and computers costing over 10000. I proved you both are incorrect. I proved you a starter can get a new video board by 200. I proved you a lower income family can get a computer for less than 1000.

Give up, man.

Again, you are misinformed. There are PCs costing more than R$ 10.000,00 as well.


And there are cars costing more than a million dollars, can you afford it? Wow, you must be poor then!! smilies/smiley.gif I ask for the last time WHAT'S YOUR POINT?
Poverty in the USA
written by Tanaka, December 07, 2006

As Americans flee the cities for the suburbs, many are failing to leave poverty behind.
The suburban poor outnumbered their inner-city counterparts for the first time last year, with more than 12 million suburban residents living in poverty, according to a study of the nation's 100 largest metropolitan areas released Thursday.
"Economies are regional now," said Alan Berube, who co-wrote the report for the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank. "Where you see increases in city poverty, in almost every metropolitan area, you also see increases in suburban poverty."
Nationally, the poverty rate leveled off last year at 12.6 percent after increasing every year since the decade began. It was a period when the country went through a recession and an uneven recovery that is still sputtering in parts of the Northeast and Midwest.
"Looking back at the 1970s, you would have seen cities suffering and suburbs staying the same," said Berube, research director at the Brookings Institution's Metropolitan Policy Program. "But the story is different today."
Berube said several factors are contributing to an increase in suburban poverty:
_Suburbs are adding people much faster than cities, making it inevitable that the number of poor people living in suburbs would eventually surpass those living in cities.
_The poverty rate in large cities (18.8 percent) is still higher than it is in the suburbs (9.4 percent). But the overall number of people living in poverty is higher in the suburbs in part because of population growth.
_America's suburbs are becoming more diverse, racially and economically. "There's poverty really everywhere in metropolitan areas because there are low-wage jobs everywhere," Berube said.
_Recent immigrants are increasingly bypassing cities and moving directly to suburbs, especially in the South and West. Those immigrants, on average, have lower incomes than people born in the United States.
Berube and research analyst Elizabeth Kneebone studied poverty figures for the 100 largest metropolitan areas, measuring changes from 1999 to 2005, the most recent data available.
In 1999, the number of poor people living in cities and suburbs was roughly even, at about 10.3 million apiece, according to the report. Last year, the suburban poor outnumbered their urban counterparts by about 1.2 million.
The federal government defined the poverty level as $15,577 for a family of three in 2005.
"Traditionally, cities have been viewed as home to poor populations, surrounded by middle- and upper-income suburbs," the report said. "This 'tipping' of poor populations to the suburbs represents a signal development that upends historical notions about who lives in cities and suburbs."
Marc H. Morial, president and CEO of the National Urban League, said many of the same social and economic problems that have plagued cities for years are now affecting suburbs: struggling schools, rising crime and low-paying jobs.
"I call it the urbanization of the suburbs," Morial said.
"I hope this says to people that the way to confront poverty is not to wall it off and concentrate it," Morial said. "You really need policies to eliminate it."
Cleveland was the city with the highest poverty rate last year, at 32.4 percent, while San Jose had the lowest, at 9.7 percent.
Suburban McAllen, Texas, at the southern tip of the state, was the suburb with the highest poverty rate last year, at 43.9 percent, while suburban Des Moines, Iowa, had the lowest, at 3.7 percent.

...
written by Christo-F, December 07, 2006
The study is faulty.

The index is rated on incomings and outgoings of a nation as per people and economics.

It mentions FTA's. That indicates that any country can have large movements of these catagories with even just one other county and it is designated as gloablised.

This risks identifying regionalism with globalism.

Disclaier: I haven't read the actual study/report.
A Brazilian has a mental problem or works for the government
written by Brazilian expat, December 08, 2006
If they believe India is drawning in dollars and everyone is getting rich then they didn't travel enough.


They don't you stupid. But they are making tens of billions of dollars every year just exporting software. Any stats will point you that. I didn't create them.

How directing people to Dell's website and telling about average salary in Sao Paulo for IT workers is misinforming?


It's not misinforming. I myself gave them the links. Liar, don't put words in my mouth.

You said absurd things like the salary being 1300 and computers costing over 10000. I proved you both are incorrect. I proved you a starter can get a new video board by 200. I proved you a lower income family can get a computer for less than 1000.

Hahahah, you just proved that you are an idiot that would buy a video board without knowing its specs.

And there are cars costing more than a million dollars, can you afford it? Wow, you must be poor then!! smilies/smiley.gif I ask for the last time WHAT'S YOUR POINT?


Of course I cannot afford them. I'm not rich. But even living as an average middle class american I own a car that would cost me R$ 300.000,00 in Brazil. Poor americans drive cars that would cost R$ 100.000,00 in Brazil. Teenagers buy those Motorola Razor cell phones around here, while just execs use them in Brazil (they didn't grow up, I guess). People can afford the latest technology very easily, and technology is cheap around here. That makes it possible for them to keep the pace to look for better jobs constantly and makes it possible for managers and entepreneurs to grasp on better uses of a technology, or better products, just because they are in direct contact with them. Isn't it funny that the most rich country on earth, that is also growing at 4% to 5% per year rates can be like that even importing everything from everywhere in the world and selling everything at a low price? That's my point. And no, if taxes are reduced to american levels in Brazil, brazilians won't buy as much as americans. But that would be a start, as more people could afford computers and cars, making their lives better. Or Brazil could start by reducing taxes on imports for machinery to be used in businesses, like the chinese and indians do. Brazil do neither... and will lose the race... quite simply.

You seem to point out ONE ISOLATED case of overpriced stuff and use it as a "proof". I repeat, want to see affordable PCs, check out Dell's site. And they aren't even the cheapest.

ONE ISOLATED CASE? Moron, all of the cases shown here are overpriced. Including the links you sent. You may fool brazilians with your cheap talking but not europeans or americans. Get over with it. I would point more cases:
http://www.americanas.com.br
http://www.submarino.com.br
http://www.chevrolet.com.br

and many more... any foreigner will see that cars and hardware are way too expensive in Brazil.

I have the money to afford decent PCs and furniture, I don't need the government to give me anything.

How the government let that happen!? A guy like you, who defend that people can't have access to cheaper products because they don't need it (in your opinion, of course), should not be allowed to purchase something you don't need. I will try to talk to my friends in the government to correct that situation. I'm sure you don't need more than a 10-year old computer and a wooden bench to work, and that your salary is so high that you could pay more taxes.

Your defense of Brazil is pathetic. You just make us all look like fools or liars. On my turn, I defend most things that happen in the US. Not all. And I cite the stupid billions of dollars spent to keep those inefficient farmers here as a nonsense that shouldn't be followed. In either case, the poor people are the ones who lose the most, as poor americans have their cost of living boosted higher and poor brazilians don't have access to technology.
Brazilian Expat, the bitter immigrant
written by A brazilian, December 08, 2006
They don't you stupid. But they are making tens of billions of dollars every year just exporting software. Any stats will point you that. I didn't create them.


Exporting software or exporting cheap labor? There's a huge difference in export software when you are Microsoft and sell your products worldwide or when you are the owner of a sweatshop.

What kinds of applications do they make? Simple of high technology? What are they copying from the americans, since you implied it by your example of Japan? What are they learning with it? What's so difficult in simple applications any person can make?

The dream of american corporations is that the rest of the world is formed by outsourcing consultancies, so they can pick those who charge less. Competing on price only doesn't give you a future. Am I lying? Do you think differently?

It's not misinforming. I myself gave them the links. Liar, don't put words in my mouth.


You said I was a misinformer. Now you are contradicting yourself.

Hahahah, you just proved that you are an idiot that would buy a video board without knowing its specs


Not sure if you noticed, but the topic was about people not being able to buy parts so they can learn and produce technology. I proved you can find cheap parts to be used for learning purposes.

I don't think all american faculties and schools have only the top of the top of computers, even there there might be outdated ones. You are crazy. This is extremely boring, you don't want to admit that you are wrong.

Of course I cannot afford them. I'm not rich. ... That's my point.


People don't need the very latest in order to learn and that's a fact. All your examples are of "the very latest" of everything, and I disagree. Programming, for example, is about concepts and you can learn them in a very outdated computer.

You are wrong and you don't want to admit it.

ONE ISOLATED CASE? Moron, all of the cases shown here are overpriced. Including the links you sent. You may fool brazilians with your cheap talking but not europeans or americans. Get over with it. I would point more cases:


This has nothing to do with is being discussed. You are in some sort of little war of your own to make point out of pure stubborness. What comparing prices have to do with the discussion you started yourself? It was proved over and over again that it was wrong.

Of course there will be things more expensive, like Apple products, some types cars that aren't produced here, so what? Among the many false statements you made in here it's a fact that the brazilians IT workers make at least 2x the value you said and computers don't cost R$ 10000 as anyone can check out in those links you passed.

Conclusion: a student can get what it needs in order to study and learn.

Your defense of Brazil is pathetic. You just make us all look like fools or liars. On my turn, I defend most things that happen in the US. Not all. And I cite the stupid billions of dollars spent to keep those inefficient farmers here as a nonsense that shouldn't be followed. In either case, the poor people are the ones who lose the most, as poor americans have their cost of living boosted higher and poor brazilians don't have access to technology.


I am not defending brazil, I am just clearing up some lies of yours. I think I have corrected them. Anyone reading this thread will have a better idea of what it is like in here. And brazilians, middle class and above, do have access to technology and that was proven.

End of story, you are some immigrant that subjected yourself to some indignant situation and now want to make it look like it was worth it. That's the only explanation to such bashing to your own country, spreading lies and misconceptions. The salary of IT workers you cited only shows you never worked in IT in Brazil before, completely out of the reality.
Hey "A Brazilian"
written by me, December 08, 2006
If you are that incredible rarity, a Brazilian programmer who can actually follow a functional specification and produce code that works reliably, do you need a job? I would be willing to pay a huge premium for such a rare skill!
Re: me
written by A brazilian, December 08, 2006
I will only answer you if you explain us the logic you used to get to that conclusion. We are waiting and we are all ears .
...
written by Brazilian expat, December 08, 2006
Exporting software or exporting cheap labor? There's a huge difference in export software when you are Microsoft and sell your products worldwide or when you are the owner of a sweatshop.

Ah, please, let's not get back to that again... read back my posts, ok? That has already been answered. Who do you think you are fooling?

The dream of american corporations is that the rest of the world is formed by outsourcing consultancies, so they can pick those who charge less. Competing on price only doesn't give you a future. Am I lying? Do you think differently?

No, I don't think differently. As well as the western europeans, germans etc. That's what the world do all the time. They are always looking for cheaper products, cheaper technologies and also cheaper workers. And the workers are always looking for higher salaries. The balance of those factors is what determines the prices in the market and moves people towards making the economy growth. Isn't it funny that the countries where that happens have the best salaries and the lowest prices for products?

One exception to this rule is Brazil: there are lots of people, like you, who voluntarily want to pay more for products and services and voluntarily want to receive less for their work. Very funny.

Not sure if you noticed, but the topic was about people not being able to buy parts so they can learn and produce technology. I proved you can find cheap parts to be used for learning purposes.

You like to say you proved this and proved that. I wonder, if you have proved something, you would need to repeat yourself over and over. Also, you worry too much about focusing the discussion on your crazy subjects, and don't allow any correlations that prove you wrong to come to talk. Again, let's not get back to this. That has already been answered and you didn't show your arguments. Again, who do you think you fool?

People don't need the very latest in order to learn and that's a fact. All your examples are of "the very latest" of everything, and I disagree. Programming, for example, is about concepts and you can learn them in a very outdated computer.

A fact. A fact is that the countries where people have most access to technology in their daily lives create the best products and techies and make more money on them. Examples? Plenty of them: the US, Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, etc.

You said I was a misinformer. Now you are contradicting yourself.

I thought you didn't see the point in bringing external websites so that readers could check the real prices. You are contradicting yourself.

This has nothing to do with is being discussed. You are in some sort of little war of your own to make point out of pure stubborness. What comparing prices have to do with the discussion you started yourself? It was proved over and over again that it was wrong.

Of course there will be things more expensive, like Apple products, some types cars that aren't produced here, so what? Among the many false statements you made in here it's a fact that the brazilians IT workers make at least 2x the value you said and computers don't cost R$ 10000 as anyone can check out in those links you passed.

Again, you said you proved it. But I sent two links of laptops costing more than R$ 10.000,00 and one is a PC, and they are nothing special, nothing that wold cost more than US$ 1,500 in the US. I'm not the one who's selling those laptops for that price, it's brazilian shops. You only got to prove that you are a liar and misinformer. And no, low-profile notebooks costing between R$ 2.000,00 and R$ 3.000,00 (the kind that was median in the US 2 years ago) are not affordable. In a country where the average income of a family is about R$ 900/month, working 2 to 4 months in order to buy a low profile laptop is not an option. Middle class has access to 2 or 3 years old technology and the poor have none. That's not the same situation as in the US, and not even as in South Korea.

End of story, you are some immigrant that subjected yourself to some indignant situation and now want to make it look like it was worth it. That's the only explanation to such bashing to your own country, spreading lies and misconceptions. The salary of IT workers you cited only shows you never worked in IT in Brazil before, completely out of the reality.

At the beginning that was funny, but now it's getting boring. You simply make too many assumptions about me. Yes, I worked in IT industry in Brazil. No, my first salary as a junior was about R$ 1.500 (not much different of the values today, as I see). And my last salary there was higher than your claimed R$ 4.000,00 to R$ 5.000,00/month. Contrary to what you say, I say I was an exception. By that time I thought it was big hehehe
Brazilian Expat, the toilet cleaner
written by A brazilian, December 08, 2006
Ah, please, let's not get back to that again... read back my posts, ok? That has already been answered. Who do you think you are fooling?


The story about immitating like the Japan did? What exactly will they be immitating by producing simple software? They aren't producing cheap computer parts.

No, I don't think differently. As well as the western europeans, germans etc. That's what the world do all the time. They are always looking for cheaper products, cheaper technologies and also cheaper workers. And the workers are always looking for higher salaries. The balance of those factors is what determines the prices in the market and moves people towards making the economy growth. Isn't it funny that the countries where that happens have the best salaries and the lowest prices for products?

One exception to this rule is Brazil: there are lots of people, like you, who voluntarily want to pay more for products and services and voluntarily want to receive less for their work. Very funny.


You are out of the topic again. How does that justifies Brazil to become some source of cheap labor? Who wins with that? Brazil? Do you the situation in here will improve with that? Do you think that competing in price with cheap labor countries such as India will give anyone a future?

You mixed a lot of things in there, you are just stubborn, you don't want to admit you are wrong.

You like to say you proved this and proved that. I wonder, if you have proved something, you would need to repeat yourself over and over.


I repeat myself because you keep changing the subject and repeating things.

A fact. A fact is that the countries where people have most access to technology in their daily lives create the best products and techies and make more money on them. Examples? Plenty of them: the US, Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, etc.


Do you have any idea of what you are talking about? What data do you have that brazilians have less access to technology? What relationship a consumer market have with the ability of producing technology? How universities and education affects it?

Learners can get what they need in order to learn and produce technology.

I thought you didn't see the point in bringing external websites so that readers could check the real prices. You are contradicting yourself.


??

Again, you said you proved it. But I sent two links of laptops costing more than R$ 10.000,00 and one is a PC, and they are nothing special, nothing that wold cost more than US$ 1,500 in the US.


SO WHAT!? THOSE WERE TWO MODELS!!? DOES IT MEAN THAT ALL LAPTOPS COST THAT!? ARE YOU STUPID? Until when will you repeat this flawed reasoning?

. You only got to prove that you are a liar and misinformer. And no, low-profile notebooks costing between R$ 2.000,00 and R$ 3.000,00 (the kind that was median in the US 2 years ago) are not affordable. In a country where the average income of a family is about R$ 900/month, working 2 to 4 months in order to buy a low profile laptop is not an option. Middle class has access to 2 or 3 years old technology and the poor have none.


People can buy things in 12x or 24x in here. A lower income family, with R$ 900 could buy a very cheap (outdated) computer and pay it in many times. A salesman, as in your example, would be able to buy a laptop without a problem paying on cash.

Yes, I worked in IT industry in Brazil. No, my first salary as a junior was about R$ 1.500 (not much different of the values today, as I see). And my last salary there was higher than your claimed R$ 4.000,00 to R$ 5.000,00/month. Contrary to what you say, I say I was an exception. By that time I thought it was big


So that probably was a very long time ago because the values are below the practiced in here. Was it in 1995? Right when the Real was established?
Least globalized good in many ways
written by Steve1, December 10, 2006
Actually it would be better if Brasil would exercise some independence and start by throwing out the NGO parasites which exist principally (after linging their pockets) to do the bidding and provide mettle for the US and other English speaking countries.

Thanks to the lack of 'globalization' Brasil is not in the rush that the US and sadly to say Europe is to being the head's of huge gulags in the name of 'rule of law' as came out today. The 'beacon of freedom' leads the world in imprisoning it's own citizens.

That is not to say that Brasil does not bow to the pseudo-moralist nonsense as demonstrated by the Sao Paolo fashion show banning teenage model's so as to follow Milan and Spain's leftist moralist interloping (or as recently demonstrated in the London travel mart's 'vitality of middle age fashion show's) to ban everything that individuals have naturally drifted to fot thousand's of years (or is it a bunch of frustrated middleage yaps that wish to see everyonhe else miserable in the name of what is 'good' fo them).

Time to put globalization back where it belongs, back in the beltway and in that cesspool in Brussel's and allow the world some room to breathe from all these prohibitions. I will cheerfully take my chances with less 'enlightenment'!
Proposta
written by A brazilian, December 13, 2006
Brasileiros, falemos somente o português e deixemos esses gringos se virarem com tradutores pela rede mundial, se assim quiserem. Assim podemos conversar livremente e comentar as asnices aqui escritas por eles. Esse site não pode ser sério ao permitir coisas como bem exemplificados nesses comentários. Isso não é apenas ofensivo de uma forma inocente, mas sim proposital. O intuito desse site é denegrir a imagem do Brasil e de seu povo, portanto gastar tempo e saliva argumentando é inútil.

Escrevamos somente o português para que outros brasileiros não se iludam ao visitar o site, e deixemo-los na escuridão de sua própria ignorância.
...
written by Ric, December 26, 2006
Brasileiros, falamos somente o Tupi-Guaraní e deixemos tanto o português como tambem o inglês, especialmente palavras estrangeiras como "site".
...
written by Ric, December 26, 2006
Ou seja, "eesitee"
Para Ric
written by A brazilian, December 26, 2006
Se vai ficar por aqui é melhor dar uma olhada nesses últimos artigos e ver o tipo de propaganda anti-brasileira que é feita. O administrador do site sabe disso e não faz nada. São mensagens de racistas e pessoas nem um pouco interessadas em discutir saudavelmente qualquer coisa, apenas ofenderão e destruirão quem puderem.

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